Mastercam Vs. Bobcad Vs. GibbsCam Vs. Any other Cam Software out there.

Hello, Everyone.
I'm not running a Large Shop. I'm not running a small shop. I work as a programmer for a local Manufacturing plant that runs a large Majority of Cast Brass production and 99% of the programs I write are done at the machine. We have one machine that uses G-code that I have been the exclusive programmer on for the past Year and a half when the machine was delivered to us and 40 or so Mazak Lathes that are 20+ years old with all of the programs done in Mazatrol by the first person able to find a programming key.
I have a small 4-Axis machine at home where I can do hobby projects, and I plan to purchase a larger mill and lathe in the near future with hopes of opening my own small job shop.
All this so everyone knows where I am coming from. I took some training classes on Cam a couple of years ago, that was basically Mastercam Training. Now I have been looking at and Demoing As many different Cam Software Packages as i can come across. However, I haven't had the time to properly train or devote to each one before the trial time runs out.
Plus, I'm tried of having several phone calls a week from different salesmen calling.

So oh lords of the forum. Yes, that was flattery. To anyone , Salesmen/Reps Included, whom is willing to help out.
I'm looking for a CAM software package that can be used on 4-Axis Machines. Not really worried about turning operations as that is normally pretty straight forward programming.

For the people on the ground.
What is your experience with your Favorite Cam?
-Features do you like?
-Which ones you could do without? and Which one have been the handiest
-How is the support with your software? Is it taking Days to get a response?
-Which Cam should I dread even Spending $100 much less the price they want?

For the Salesmen of the Forum

What I'm looking for is:

Price
- Always a number one on everyone's list, My budget is about $2500, but if i can find a software that is Good i'm
not scared to spend more.
Features
- 3 - Axis at a minimum.
- 4-Axis Capabilities (Indexing, Wrapping, Rotary), But this is just a wish list item.
Easy of use
- If it is going to take six months before I can get it to do a simple face milling operation. I'm going to write
it by hand.
Support/Training
- Am i going to be able to talk to someone quickly to resolve any issues?




So that turned out to be a longer post than i originally planned. If I am stepping on any toes here please feel free to delete it and I will continue my research on my own. Just looking for everyone opinion.

Jexstir

You have a machine in your garage, go get Fusion360. Until you're ready to drop 10K or more, that's your best option.

Next time try searching the forum. This exact question comes up at least once a week.


edit...even after reading your post for a third time, I can't tell if your shopping for the 40 machine cnc shop you work at or your home hobby machine. If its for your work, with that many machines there's no way anyone should be programming at the control...so much wasted money. You could buy any high-end software and the ROI generated will make you look like a genius.

Absolutely makes me crazy to hear shops are running like this. 40 machines being programmed at the control WOW. Give me 2 weeks and 5% of the bottom line improvements I make please!!!!

Not only that, but then they delete the programs. Or better yet the programs are loaded in from a server....they need to be corrected by operator. Fixed, ran, then deleted all to have to do the vicious cycle over again.

Fusion360, full package gets you 4th axis. They just added quick keys which makes me draw faster still. You will have to find your own post/make one or pay more for that.

Fusion 360 is your answer. Gibbscam is great, but you don't need it for what your describing.

The problem with you question is few people have actually used multiple cam softwares and even fewer have actually spent the time to become proficient in each to where they can give a accurate comparison.

For myself I learned on Featurecam and could really make that software sing. To me its the best by far. But in reality that is only because its the 1st software I learned and liked. So most of the reviews are going to be bla bla this is the best but in reality its just what works for them and what they like.

For the past 4 years I have been using Mastercam for solidoworks and its the biggest POS software ever written. For me its extremely buggy and the most F'ed up thin is it doesn't have a undo button. Notepad even has undo button and thats fee. The only thing its good at is teaching you to save after every click. I went to Mastercam with some of the bugs and they made it clear their software is the best and there is no solution to your problems. But I know a lot of people love Mastercam and I think back in the day it was the best. Not so much anymore.


I played with HSMworks and like it but I don't have enough hours on it to compare.


I would look hard and your demos and go with the one you liked best and has the options you want. And don't worry about the price a good software that you can make sing will make the machines sing and easily pay for itself. Shit software that doesn't fit you and your company will not.

munruh said:

Fusion 360 is your answer. Gibbscam is great, but you don't need it for what your describing.

Click to expand...

I use both of the above softwares on a daily basis.

goooose said:

edit...even after reading your post for a third time, I can't tell if your shopping for the 40 machine cnc shop you work at or your home hobby machine. If its for your work, with that many machines there's no way anyone should be programming at the control...

Click to expand...

I’m currently shopping for myself. Looking for program that I can use when I get my own for-profit shop going in the future. However currently all I have is a small hobby machine.

As for programming at the control for 40+ machines. Yes that is how we are currently doing it. There is a statement that repeatedly comes up where I work that I have started to hate with a red-hot passion. “That’s the way we have been doing it for years”. Our whole system for programming and program control is completely horrendous. Prior to my intervention programs were only stored on the machines and maybe on a drive located with the last person who recalled that we may need to have a back-up or a maintenance person who needed to backup parameters or programs on a machine that has went down. We now have them stored on the drives as well as our server. We also had a problem with would-be programmers “improving” the programs to increase cycle time or some other issue. Unfortunately we are still having to program at the machine and if I’m not the one making the changes then they are normally not documented. As I’m still fairly new in a line of programmers over the years (only 3 of these machines are less than 20 years old) I’m still trying to clean up changes made on one machine that was never made on the other 7 that were running the same product.
Now for the kicker. Our management seems to have the impression that ideas for improvement cannot come from below their station. Meaning simple changes and documentation that could be made extremely easily are simply ignored because it isn’t their idea. Such as Software for writing new programs.

So kinda got off topic and on to a rant. Sorry about that.

I've been using Mastercam since '95, and it can do just about anything pretty well (except mill-turn or multi-spindle / multi-turret). I would say that it used to be the best, until they stopped listening to their user base. It's still the easiest software to find a competent programmer for, or to find free support and help (eMastercam).

Some folks I know have moved away from Mastercam to try some other packages. In particular I'm hearing good things about Top Solid.

Fusion 360 is a good, easy, cheap choice for getting started, but there are pitfalls to watch out for that will make it less appealing as you grow. First, since it's subscription based, if AD decides to terminate it, like they have the majority of their products in the past, it will stop working and you will lose access to all of your files and work. Second, since it's cloud based, you will be unable to take jobs with a security requirement; no ITAR, no high-value IP, etc.

mhajicek said:

I would say that it used to be the best, until they stopped listening to their user base.

Click to expand...

When did Mastercam stop listening to their user base? Have you been on their forum lately? Ever had beta access? Sure, they make decisions on their own, every business has to, but so many features and functions are direct result of end user feedback.
But back on topic, I don't think OP is going to be dropping Mastercam kinda money for home shop use...so this is kind of a moot point.

Jexstir said:

...There is a statement that repeatedly comes up where I work that I have started to hate with a red-hot passion. “That’s the way we have been doing it for years”...We also had a problem with would-be programmers “improving” the programs to increase cycle time or some other issue. Unfortunately we are still having to program at the machine and if I’m not the one making the changes then they are normally not documented.
Now for the kicker...

Our management seems to have the impression that ideas for improvement cannot come from below their station. Meaning simple changes and documentation that could be made extremely easily are simply ignored because it isn’t their idea. Such as Software for writing new programs.

So kinda got off topic and on to a rant. Sorry about that.

Click to expand...

Perhaps off topic a bit but IMO if the OP elaborates on a tangent then so be it. If management has the mindset you described then you do indeed have an uphill battle but not an impossible one. I'm a bit unclear on your exact situation because it sounds like you are given leeway to make changes yet management is not fully onboard with ideas other than their own. You can keep moving forward and it will be up to you if want to stay at that company and put up with the issues or move on to work for a company which promotes the acquisition of knowledge and skill, provides opportunities and encourages individuals/teams to succeed in a way that leads to collective success. Managers who are resistant to other people's ideas lack some basic character requirements to be able to listen to their people and decide what is best for the company; not what's best to stroke their ego. It is not uncommon in small and medium companies to have managers who feel that either their responsibilities is to possess the sum of knowledge of all their employees, which is almost always a disastrous mindset to have. Yikes! If you are a savvy and cunning person you may be able to change their mindset but it is a very difficult thing to do as well as playing with fire. Also, meetings are a great way to get input from everyone who should have a voice in deciding best practices: programmers, operators, managers and designers. Even sales should have a voice in process meeting because they have to sell the company's capabilities.

In the mean time keep doing what your doing...moving forward the best you can.
1) Identify best practices.
2) Create/change processes to use best practices.
3) Establish guidelines for following processes.
4) Get management to get management on board, the best you can, to follow through.

Really, what we're talking about here is operators following current, established processes and management designating that in the job descriptions of the operators. Failure to do what their job description is should result in coaching by management. Subsequent failures should result in reports made to the personnel's files although some larger companies do this every time a coaching occurs. Finally and always as a last resort the employee is permanently dismissed from the company.

I am thinking you'll easily be able able to do items 1-2 but 3 will be a little more difficult and 4 may be very difficult if not impossible. Whatever the case I wish you success.

Your budget knocks you out of Gibbs and MasterCam.
Gibbs mill does 4th axis.


Lot so people use MasterCam, so if you need help down the road, having that may be a nice idea.

Gibbs was very EZ to learn the basics...coming from finger CAM all I ran were basic jobs so in a day I had programs being generated. Within a week I was way ahead of finger CAM. Month out the software was making me money.

One thing I did not see mentioned and thats generated code. Gibbs has a few ways I could screw up and cause crashes. Usually on the retract to r or clearance plane ops. Aside from that very solid non quirky programs are generated. I can run a program, verify first process with tool is right, allow an op stop and walk away till next tool.

I had a gent that had his own seat of BobCAD and it seemed my machine was the simulator as it was used to fix Code as he went along. After a few bumps and bruises with him blaming software we decided Program with Gibbs or don't...

Last point I'd share...I feel comfortable with some software. CAM, CAD, Accounting, Apple etc I kinda know how things will work and that just makes life easier. Some software you figure it out and still don't understand why you have to do it that way. I know for me, its something I use all the time...be comfortable with it.

Good luck

EndlessWaltz said:

Not only that, but then they delete the programs. Or better yet the programs are loaded in from a server....they need to be corrected by operator. Fixed, ran, then deleted all to have to do the vicious cycle over again.

Fusion360, full package gets you 4th axis. They just added quick keys which makes me draw faster still. You will have to find your own post/make one or pay more for that.

Click to expand...

OT: This is almost exactly the situation I have found myself in, came back to a shop I interned in a couple years ago as an ad hoc programmer / system admin/ technical wizard.
Started out by taking stock and backing up each machine and harddrive I could to scour for old programs.
Only to find that every programmer before me liked to label every part and program.
Program 1 part 1 100.Nc (ok not every one but you get what I mean I think)

ON TOPIC REPLY: I think there is a good amount of support for Fusion 360 but I did my training on BobCad/Cam and speaking as someone who knew NOTHING about CNC machines or G-code or CAD work prior to coming into this industry two years ago I will say that I like Bob.
I feel BobCad does the brunt of the work that a moderate machine shop could ever need and seemed to be pretty intuitive after I got time to learn everything.
There are some things I'm certain other cams do better and worse but for its price and ability dont over look Bob.
Also the sales staff and service teams have been pretty good so far!
I wish I had more experience with other software but give Fusion and Bob a try and learn a bit of both to see what you think!!
Welcome to the forums

Getting a demo of Fusion 360 some time soon to see it's any good. Looks and sounds too good to be true.


Been running Edgecam for years and it's absolutely appalling now, too many bugs and crashes, struggles to do the basics now. The maintenance costs are appalling considering most most of our calls are to do bugs from updates.

For what we were paying for 2 Edgecam seats we could have approx about 12 seats of fusion 360.

goooose said:

When did Mastercam stop listening to their user base? Have you been on their forum lately? Ever had beta access? Sure, they make decisions on their own, every business has to, but so many features and functions are direct result of end user feedback.
But back on topic, I don't think OP is going to be dropping Mastercam kinda money for home shop use...so this is kind of a moot point.

Click to expand...

I've been on Mastercam.com and eMastercam.com both since their beginnings. I used to work for the local reseller about 18 years ago. I've been a beta tester for ever too.

I've been using Mastercam by keystroke since '95. It's about ten times faster than clicking icons, and I have over 20 years of muscle memory for the keystroke arrangement. This is pretty well broken in the new versions. I did an early usage test, pre-beta, of Mastercam 2017, and told them that it looked like the ribbon would be easier for brand new users, but experienced users would hate it and it would slow them down. They were overjoyed to hear that, since new users are all they care about and existing users can go pound sand. I know a LOT of mastercam users, and not a one of them that's talked about it uses the ribbon very much; they all use customized right-click menus. I've had dozens of conversations with the guys in charge if UI at CNC Software, and I've been told that I should learn to love it because everyone else does and they aren't changing it. Many of my acquaintances have been dumping Mastercam and trying other software, in large part because of how much the new interface sucks, but also due to persistent bugs and a tendency to crash that persist from release to release. Some bugs are decades old, have been reported dozens of times, and yet the staff act surprised when they come up again on the forums.

I also was told a few times that there are videos of people programming quickly and efficiently with the ribbon. I asked several times to see them, but received no response, which tells me that they were lying. I do not believe anyone can program quickly and efficiently with the ribbon interface.

mhajicek said:

I've been on Mastercam.com and eMastercam.com both since their beginnings. I used to work for the local reseller about 18 years ago. I've been a beta tester for ever too.

I've been using Mastercam by keystroke since '95. It's about ten times faster than clicking icons, and I have over 20 years of muscle memory for the keystroke arrangement. This is pretty well broken in the new versions. I did an early usage test, pre-beta, of Mastercam 2017, and told them that it looked like the ribbon would be easier for brand new users, but experienced users would hate it and it would slow them down. They were overjoyed to hear that, since new users are all they care about and existing users can go pound sand. I know a LOT of mastercam users, and not a one of them that's talked about it uses the ribbon very much; they all use customized right-click menus. I've had dozens of conversations with the guys in charge if UI at CNC Software, and I've been told that I should learn to love it because everyone else does and they aren't changing it. Many of my acquaintances have been dumping Mastercam and trying other software, in large part because of how much the new interface sucks, but also due to persistent bugs and a tendency to crash that persist from release to release. Some bugs are decades old, have been reported dozens of times, and yet the staff act surprised when they come up again on the forums.

I also was told a few times that there are videos of people programming quickly and efficiently with the ribbon. I asked several times to see them, but received no response, which tells me that they were lying. I do not believe anyone can program quickly and efficiently with the ribbon interface.

Click to expand...

I bet you posted the exact same thing when X was released.
You don't think 2019 is faster than X9, you're crazy. The only reason it's probably slower for you is you bitch and moan before every mouse click.

goooose said:

I bet you posted the exact same thing when X was released.
You don't think 2019 is faster than X9, you're crazy.

Click to expand...

I was more efficient at writing programs in X9 than I am in 2017,2018 and 2019. I had all of my functions right there on 1 page/tab. Now I have to use about 9 tabs.
Is 2019 better? Absolutely,the new toolpaths are awesome, but it crashes more often than I'd like.
There are still things I don't like about it, but you can't please everyone.

I started out on Espirit back in '03-'04 and we switched to Mastercam in '10'ish because the other machinist couldn't learn it on his own(most companies would have trained him , but since he's the buddy-buddy it was blaimed on the software, $12k later and able to do less !) , I hate MasterCam compared to Espirit even though our last update had been in '07 there are still things MasterCam can't do that Espirit did , used it till that original computer died 3 years ago and couldn't load it on the new one so had to use MC for everything . I'd love to see the new Espirit version . I don't know how it compares to some of the others , GibbsCam was my 2nd choice back then but it was a bit more costly . Will be looking at Fusion 360 for my own shop in the next couple months .



.

Bigbore050 said:

The problem with you question is few people have actually used multiple cam softwares and even fewer have actually spent the time to become proficient in each to where they can give a accurate comparison.

Click to expand...

This is exactly the problem.

I have used a few. It might sound backwards but make a list of cons for each software package and choose the one that has the least that impact you.

Mastercam is too big and complex for many to use effectively. Also rather expensive.

Gibbs from what I saw was too outdated(when I was looking) and they utilize their own GUI that I am not a fan of.

BobCAD/CAM will get pushed on you so hard you might cave if you don't tell them to eff off. I have no idea if the software works these days, I can't handle even reading anything about it anymore. I used it back in ~2004 and it was terrible. I know people that got conned into buying it more recently and they hate it.

SolidCAM is what I went with, I really like it but it also has it's issues. There have been bugs that I've been reporting for 3 years that still aren't fixed - and I think it's because very few people do OD thread milling in a mill so it doesn't get reported often, but they're usually very quick in addressing bugs. SC2018 is buggy but the latest 2017 release is rock solid. This software has lots of tiers and add-ons, some like that, some don't. I was able to get what I want for a price point I could deal with.

Fusion - hobbyist software. I'm surprised to see machine shops with real machines still using it. It does some things well but I have yet to experience that - my experience is very limited. This is a marketing tool for Auto Desk. They use it to draw in hobby users and low revenue users - it's great for them but as they move up they either keep using it or continue with Autodesk software. They put a bad taste in my mouth with some of their recent changes.

HSMWorks/Express - again the express package is great for hobby users, free! Again used as a marketing tool to draw you into spending $10K+ in the full version which last I checked they don't really support.

Espirt, Catia, Pro/E, all great high end packages, and there are others. Complex, expensive, etc.

The best CAM software is the one you know. Same goes for CAD.

A proficient user can quickly/easily work around shortcomings of a piece of software, and the best CAM system in the world will still not magically create perfect tool paths (or even mediocre ones) if the user is not proficient on that software.

My "recommendation" would be (especially if you have a $2500 budget): Dive into Fusion 360 Ultimate (currently listed at $1535/yr), and become really good with it.


I'll put my flame-proof clothing on now, LOL!

PM

When working for other companies I have used and was to varying degrees proficient in Mastercam and Solidworks/HSM Express. Most places I worked were Tool & Die, and programmed at the control. Last company I worked for I did everything, all day, every part, on Solidworks/HSM Express.

I absolutely hated Mastercam, a good part of that may have been the teacher, who was a self proclaimed expert at machining who probably wouldn't know the difference between a Jig Borer and a 3D Pantograph. Maybe that is unfair. He was a moron, lets put it that way. Mastercam was 30 clicks to do a simple tool path. I am sure given enough time, and given a very high complexity of parts, I would probably appreciate Mastercam. Having an instructor who actually knew what they were doing would probably have helped as well.

I greatly enjoyed SolidWorks/HSM Express, as long as you did not want to do any 3-D work. With HSM Express you could do 3-D work, but you had to think like a manual machinist and do things the "old fashioned" way, which honestly, works out better a lot of the time. I found the ability to make templates and code variables to be an EXCELLENT way to speed up machining processes. If I could afford a nice enough computer to run Solidworks and I could afford Solidworks, I would absolutely run it and HSM Express.

Fusion... I run fusion in my shop. I hate fusion. I will tell everyone that will listen about how much I hate fusion until they start to go cross eyed and drool. It seems to have been created and is maintained by a bunch of millennials with no machining background. I am dumbfounded at the clumsy, confusing, often hidden menu and selections that they state are "intuitive". I frequently run into machining operations that simply will not work in Fusion with hours of frustrating attempts. I have previously received responses on their forum akin to "why would you want to do that?" for what I consider pretty basic and straightforward machining processes. Aspects that appear to have functionality are not tied to anything literal. Estimated machining time, not actually tied to the machine specs you input. File size, not actually the size of the code output.

I could easily fill several pages with issues I have with Fusion.

So, my recommendation, get Fusion. It has to be the most capable, functional, and adaptive program I have ever used in its price range. I pay $0 per month, on a yearly basis. I still make a great deal of my parts on manual machines, if I need to make 2, they get modeled and programed. I make some pretty impressive parts, in my humble opinion, on a 30 year old VMC and Fusion. They don't always get along, and I had to write my own post to get Fusion to play nice with my VMC, and OH, by the way, if you want to use ANY of the new softwares, you had for SURE either be set up to drip feed or buy a machine with LOTS of memory. My old VMC has 46k of memory. I have to be pretty damn creative to machine some parts with such a short amount of code.

It took me almost 10 years to grow my hobby into a full time business, it is pretty humble compared to many here, but it is mine. Without Fusion I would not have the ability to continue growing as I am right now. I have been able to develop a product line along with doing more complex work for customers. I have been able to machine parts, quantities of parts, that I would never have attempted if I had to manually code them.

$1500 for Fusion, for a company that has multiple employs, machines, cash flow, sounds like a steal to me.

Free for Fusion, for a company with one employee, with a machine, no cash flow, sounds like a steal to me.