New Cam Software NX or Esprit

HAC · Aug 25, 2020

Greetings All,
I am a shop owner/user looking for input from actual users of either NX or Esprit that program and run 3+2 and 5 axis simultaneous, verticals with 4th axis, and lathes with live C axis, swiss style with or without B axis. I am not interested in other CAM providers at this time, I would like to focus on the two listed. I believe both options are good options however I would like to know the biggest complaints from users and any options that I should ask about that are not apparent upfront. “You don’t know what you don’t know, so how could I ask for that upfront”. I have already received quotes for both, and currently NX CAM-only total machining is looking like a better value based upon cost and modules included, however I want to make sure I am not focused only on dollars.

I would also like opinions on service and support, given ESPRIT is direct and NX is typically through a VAR. We are remotely located so there is no local support for either product. Recommendations on VARs for NX, who you would use again, do they have experts readily available? Posts, the magic that makes everything work, ESPRIT is locked down NX is open. I believe ESPRIT is stronger on the posts and support, but I want to hear from NX users. NX has NC-code simulation which could enable you to debug posts? I’m comfortable editing posts but I don’t want to if I don’t have to.

We are currently a SolidWorks shop with lots of legacy data if we were to move to NX CAM we would also consider moving to NX CAD. I know some of you have made this transition already so I would really appreciate input on the transition. How do you handle your legacy data? Is NX CAD worth the loss of productivity during the switch from SolidWorks.

Current operations: Machining in both 3+2 and 5axis simultaneous, verticals with 4th axis, and lathe with live C axis. Perform on machine probing and measurements prior to CMM. Most work is R&D, low volume high precision, a production run for us is 20 to 100 pcs. So, getting tool path to machine is more important than absolute optimization for production. We are currently using Delcam for SolidWorks which is essentially FeatureCam in SolidWorks. We were disappointed when Delcam was acquired by Autodesk because the writing was on the wall. FeatureCam/DFS has served us well but it lacks functionality and is essentially end of life. This is one of my biggest concerns with ESPRIT, will they go the way of Delcam?

Future operations: Looking at multi axis lathes and swiss style machines, multi axis wire EDM.

Looking forward to the input.

TeachMePlease · Aug 25, 2020

I use Esprit to program a fleet of Swiss machines, no B-Axis (well, one, but I don't play with it). It's powerful. Once you get your favorites down, it's easy to apply the same strategies to any part (Like, "this is how I turn stainless" and with one click, you've got your tool, tool holder, offsets, high pressure coolant, feeds, speeds, and DOC filled in). We have NX, but I've never used it, mainly the mill guys use it. Never even heard anyone talk about using it for a Swiss. Esprit is not a "pick it up and make a part the same day" CAM like Partmaker. I still struggle with it sometimes, but overall, it's very powerful. The full machine simulations are great, if that's your thing. Support through DP Technology has been awesome for us. They're only an email or phone call away, and they usually get me the answer I need right away.

Mike1974 · Aug 25, 2020

If you've browsed the forum you will find various complaints about the difficulty of getting started with NX. There are a few members that disagree, but having used it "from scratch" (no customization for our parts, machines, etc) it is an uphill battle for sure. I haven't used Esprit in so long it is irrelevant, but I have heard it is top dog for mill turns.

Macturn · Aug 25, 2020

I use NX to program twin spindle Y axis lathes day in day out, twin turret millturns etc etc. If the number of dialogs in Esprit don't phase you then the dialogs in NX won't either.

There are demonstrations on YouTube showing NX programming and simulating a triple turret lathe so swiss machines should not be a problem

Getting a post and simulation for Fanuc Siemens or Heidenhain in should be acheivable for most reseller. Okuma posts are a WIP but our reseller got us going with a little bit of collaboration.

Also consider post builder training, teach a man to fish.......

g-coder05 · Aug 25, 2020

Esprit Is an all around good solid Cam system. As TeachMePlease pointed out you wont pick it up in a day but you will pick it up much faster than NX. Esprit's feature recognition is second only to Featurecam and would cut your programing time substantially. I've never tried multi turret/spindle lathes on NX so cant weigh in on that part as I am full on Partmaker for Swiis and Multi Turret.

Mike1974 nailed it about the getting started with NX, Not many that use it are actually self taught and the ones who are self taught don't utilize the power of NX. You would really need some (a lot) of hands on classroom training to get the most out of it.

You need to consider your post, I think you only get one freebie with either software before they both rip you a new one. The nice thing about Esprit is over on the zone there are loads that people have uploaded, much more than NX. From your shops description you will need several post and swiss post are not cheap.

Also, put out some adds in your area for NX and Esprit programmers and see what kind of responses you get. Sounds like you need several and not having a talent pool to pick from would suck unless you want to pay a relocation. I've never really thought about Hawaii as a hot spot for machining but being it's closer to the Asian manufacturing market I wouldn't be surprised if NX comes up strong in your area for the number of users.

Macturn · Aug 25, 2020

Adding to above:
My experience with showing new users around NX is that they are now exposed to CAM with a full blown set of design tools or vice versa, some will relish the power the possibilities others will find daunting.

If you don't have CAD software already then keep in mind NX comes with all the tools you could want and more. New doors can be opened if your seats are not fully occupied programming and you want to make use of it in quiet moments, even if it's for internal use only.

plutoniumsalmon · Aug 26, 2020

Hello.
I have both. Though I don't use nx cam. Esprit has great support. Straight from the source, all questions answered almost immediately and sometimes even after hours. NX vars, in my case Saratech, is terrible. It seems that with them they can blame Siemens for any of their failings. Oh we said you get free six hours of training when actually you don't, well that's totally the fault of Siemens, type of thing. With that being said if I had to buy one, for me, I'd get NX as I am more cad heavy. Id just get a better var. But maybe in your case esprit would make more sense as they seem to really focus on Swiss and tng seems more user friendly than 20xx.

HAC · Aug 26, 2020

TeachMePlease said:
I use Esprit to program a fleet of Swiss machines, no B-Axis (well, one, but I don't play with it). It's powerful. Once you get your favorites down, it's easy to apply the same strategies to any part (Like, "this is how I turn stainless" and with one click, you've got your tool, tool holder, offsets, high pressure coolant, feeds, speeds, and DOC filled in). We have NX, but I've never used it, mainly the mill guys use it. Never even heard anyone talk about using it for a Swiss. Esprit is not a "pick it up and make a part the same day" CAM like Partmaker. I still struggle with it sometimes, but overall, it's very powerful. The full machine simulations are great, if that's your thing. Support through DP Technology has been awesome for us. They're only an email or phone call away, and they usually get me the answer I need right away.

Thanks for the input, I am very interested in the speed at which we can develop programs. Automation via templates or strategies would be very important for us, we have spent a fair amount of time dialing in this exact thing with our current system. Machine simulation is also important when we are pushing the limit on part size in the machine envelop. Nothing makes your sphincter tighten up faster than multiple axis swinging around with minimal clearance on the singular part you have several days in machine time. I think both of the systems handle this well but I do like that NX is processing the NC code. Then it comes down to how well you have modeled your machine environment. We have factory supplied models for our DMG 5 axis but not for some of our verticals with 4th.

HAC · Aug 26, 2020

Mike1974 said:
If you've browsed the forum you will find various complaints about the difficulty of getting started with NX. There are a few members that disagree, but having used it "from scratch" (no customization for our parts, machines, etc) it is an uphill battle for sure. I haven't used Esprit in so long it is irrelevant, but I have heard it is top dog for mill turns.

Thanks for your input. I am worried about my employees ability to run with it, I certainly do not want to make things harder than they should be for my guys. The reality is it takes a lot of investment to learn any system and the upfront cost of the system is nothing compared to the hours spent learning the workarounds for the tool. This is why the VAR/support is so important and seems to be the major sticking point with a lot of NX folks. We've done it the hard way before and figured it all out on our own but I don't want to repeat history. I'm paying for a product to make us more productive and expect support, training and implementation. As I said in the into, ESPRIT seems to be on the right side of the fence here and seems to be the consensus in the forum.

HAC · Aug 26, 2020

Macturn said:
I use NX to program twin spindle Y axis lathes day in day out, twin turret millturns etc etc. If the number of dialogs in Esprit don't phase you then the dialogs in NX won't either.

There are demonstrations on YouTube showing NX programming and simulating a triple turret lathe so swiss machines should not be a problem

Getting a post and simulation for Fanuc Siemens or Heidenhain in should be acheivable for most reseller. Okuma posts are a WIP but our reseller got us going with a little bit of collaboration.

Also consider post builder training, teach a man to fish.......

This is one of the things I really like about NX, the post editing ability. While it's great that ESPRIT has proven posts, there are situations where you may need to copy your dialed in post and make a specific change for one job to make it work. You may never need that specific format again but it's nice to have the ability to make the change. I can't tell you how many times I've modified our post on a Saturday night to make the machine have clearance for rotations or approaches.

HAC · Aug 26, 2020

g-coder05 said:
Esprit Is an all around good solid Cam system. As TeachMePlease pointed out you wont pick it up in a day but you will pick it up much faster than NX. Esprit's feature recognition is second only to Featurecam and would cut your programing time substantially. I've never tried multi turret/spindle lathes on NX so cant weigh in on that part as I am full on Partmaker for Swiis and Multi Turret.

Mike1974 nailed it about the getting started with NX, Not many that use it are actually self taught and the ones who are self taught don't utilize the power of NX. You would really need some (a lot) of hands on classroom training to get the most out of it.

You need to consider your post, I think you only get one freebie with either software before they both rip you a new one. The nice thing about Esprit is over on the zone there are loads that people have uploaded, much more than NX. From your shops description you will need several post and swiss post are not cheap.

Also, put out some adds in your area for NX and Esprit programmers and see what kind of responses you get. Sounds like you need several and not having a talent pool to pick from would suck unless you want to pay a relocation. I've never really thought about Hawaii as a hot spot for machining but being it's closer to the Asian manufacturing market I wouldn't be surprised if NX comes up strong in your area for the number of users.

Not to many programmers in the islands, even fewer to none with experience on either system. Anyone looking to relocate, looking for a journeyman level machinist to join our team. Must have experience with NX or ESPRIT...

HAC · Aug 26, 2020

Macturn said:
Adding to above:
My experience with showing new users around NX is that they are now exposed to CAM with a full blown set of design tools or vice versa, some will relish the power the possibilities others will find daunting.

If you don't have CAD software already then keep in mind NX comes with all the tools you could want and more. New doors can be opened if your seats are not fully occupied programming and you want to make use of it in quiet moments, even if it's for internal use only.

We are running SolidWorks currently and have a ton of legacy data which makes it hard to justify switching. However, it is the exact reason I'm in this situation currently. Had I started with NX CAD years ago I would not be entertaining ESPRIT as an option because the work flow would justify NX outright.

HAC · Aug 26, 2020

plutoniumsalmon said:
Hello.
I have both. Though I don't use nx cam. Esprit has great support. Straight from the source, all questions answered almost immediately and sometimes even after hours. NX vars, in my case Saratech, is terrible. It seems that with them they can blame Siemens for any of their failings. Oh we said you get free six hours of training when actually you don't, well that's totally the fault of Siemens, type of thing. With that being said if I had to buy one, for me, I'd get NX as I am more cad heavy. Id just get a better var. But maybe in your case esprit would make more sense as they seem to really focus on Swiss and tng seems more user friendly than 20xx.

Thanks for the input on Esprit support. I would like to hear more from others regarding their NX VARs. What is your opinion of the CAD functions in Esprit?

gkoenig · Aug 26, 2020

HAC said:
Thanks for your input. I am worried about my employees ability to run with it, I certainly do not want to make things harder than they should be for my guys. The reality is it takes a lot of investment to learn any system and the upfront cost of the system is nothing compared to the hours spent learning the workarounds for the tool. This is why the VAR/support is so important and seems to be the major sticking point with a lot of NX folks. We've done it the hard way before and figured it all out on our own but I don't want to repeat history. I'm paying for a product to make us more productive and expect support, training and implementation. As I said in the into, ESPRIT seems to be on the right side of the fence here and seems to be the consensus in the forum.

A couple of points:

1- I've always warned folks that the NX learning curve is steep, but most of the reason behind that is that users are getting thrown into a new CAD & CAM system, and the most heavyweight versions of both in the industry at that. Neither one is especially difficult to learn on their own, but the combination together can be a bit of a bear. Start with the CAD side and get a little comfortable, then the CAM side gets a lot easier (you are familiar with NX workflows, geometry selection, UI, etc).

2- If this is primarily a CAM transition, you can't really go wrong with either Esprit or NX. I don't think there is anything one can do that the other can't, but they definitely have their own strengths and weaknesses. Both have very active development teams behind them, with NX turning towards usability, while Esprit just reformed their entire interface.

The thing is, the NX CAD side is absolutely worth the weight in gold. If you are job shopping, you'll probably be just fine with seats of SW and the basic CAD tools in Esprit for pre-programming model prep... but if you deal with creating complex geometry for customers, NX CAD is a tool I will absolutely fanboi like crazy for because it is simply incredible, and getting better all the time. The Synchronous Modeling tools alone almost make it worth ditching SW for the job shop environment just for the ability to modify outside geometry sent to you as dumb solids with almost feature-tree levels of control. Beyond that, there is just a laundry list of capabilities and tool qualities NX has that blow the doors off of SolidWorks.

I have my own line of products I manufacturer and I do production consulting. On the inside business, NX CAD has paid for itself just in giving me the ability to rapidly create really stunning geometry that can be machined efficiently while looking badass. On the consulting side, we often work with customer files in the very early stages and work with the ID folks to help tune their concepts for real-world manufacturability, and NX CAD has paid itself off again by letting me make almost instant tweaks and work with those teams in a way that often shocks them. Lately, my favorite trick is to be on Zoom meetings with design teams and instead of taking notes, I'll share my screen and implement dramatic geometry changes, in real-time, while we are discussing options, from raw solid-models and it blows everyone away (including myself!).

NX CAM is very good, absolutely top of the class and you can have a Ford v. Chevy debate about it where you'll never come up with a clear winner against Hypermill or Esprit. NX CAD is in a total class by itself.

HAC · Aug 26, 2020

gkoenig said:
A couple of points:

1- I've always warned folks that the NX learning curve is steep, but most of the reason behind that is that users are getting thrown into a new CAD & CAM system, and the most heavyweight versions of both in the industry at that. Neither one is especially difficult to learn on their own, but the combination together can be a bit of a bear. Start with the CAD side and get a little comfortable, then the CAM side gets a lot easier (you are familiar with NX workflows, geometry selection, UI, etc).

2- If this is primarily a CAM transition, you can't really go wrong with either Esprit or NX. I don't think there is anything one can do that the other can't, but they definitely have their own strengths and weaknesses. Both have very active development teams behind them, with NX turning towards usability, while Esprit just reformed their entire interface.

The thing is, the NX CAD side is absolutely worth the weight in gold. If you are job shopping, you'll probably be just fine with seats of SW and the basic CAD tools in Esprit for pre-programming model prep... but if you deal with creating complex geometry for customers, NX CAD is a tool I will absolutely fanboi like crazy for because it is simply incredible, and getting better all the time. The Synchronous Modeling tools alone almost make it worth ditching SW for the job shop environment just for the ability to modify outside geometry sent to you as dumb solids with almost feature-tree levels of control. Beyond that, there is just a laundry list of capabilities and tool qualities NX has that blow the doors off of SolidWorks.

I have my own line of products I manufacturer and I do production consulting. On the inside business, NX CAD has paid for itself just in giving me the ability to rapidly create really stunning geometry that can be machined efficiently while looking badass. On the consulting side, we often work with customer files in the very early stages and work with the ID folks to help tune their concepts for real-world manufacturability, and NX CAD has paid itself off again by letting me make almost instant tweaks and work with those teams in a way that often shocks them. Lately, my favorite trick is to be on Zoom meetings with design teams and instead of taking notes, I'll share my screen and implement dramatic geometry changes, in real-time, while we are discussing options, from raw solid-models and it blows everyone away (including myself!).

NX CAM is very good, absolutely top of the class and you can have a Ford v. Chevy debate about it where you'll never come up with a clear winner against Hypermill or Esprit. NX CAD is in a total class by itself.

Thanks for sharing your use case and your time.
We are in very similar situations, we also develop our own products and provide design engineering and manufacturing support to our customers. I've used a variety of CAD/CAM tools over the years so the NX learning curve doesn't scare me too much. However, ease of use and automation of tasks is still a top priority. I want to give my guys the greatest opportunity for success, struggling with software is frustrating and demotivating. I realize the importance of training and would not expect someone to be proficient with any new system for quite some time. Hence the reason I really want to hear about all the success stories with NX VARs. I think it is crucial to have support that is knowledgeable and available, and it seems Esprit has this covered. I have not heard the same regarding NX but I want to keep an open mind.

NX CAD is one of the main reasons I'm interested in NX CAM. SolidWorks has allowed us to get this far and has worked very well for us. However, SolidWorks is not as stable as it should be and large feature sets make it fall flat on its face. Instability and slow performance with large feature set drawings/assemblies is infuriating. (I know I'm going to get flack for picking on SolidWorks, it's not our design techniques or computer setup both have been reviewed by outside parties.) The integration between NX CAD/CAM is incredibly valuable at face value and we have demonstrated the same type of workflow with our current set up. What type of machining are you performing with NX? Do you collaborate with other employees in your facility through NX or are you the sole user? Have you developed your own posts or used the editor? Using PMI?

Mike1974 · Aug 26, 2020

OT-

How is the talent pool in Hawaii for machining? Doesn't seem like you would have alot of people to choose from...?

For the record, I relocated for a job. It is doable on both sides. Some employers scoff at the idea, but you gotta do what you gotta do, unless you (or the owner?) want to work 20 hours a day.

plutoniumsalmon · Aug 26, 2020

Hello.
Esprit templates are great almost just drag and drop. I think they have an option for knowledge base or something like that, that might make it faster but I dont have that. What I dont like about my version of esprit is the lack of ability to do a second or third op in the same file. Right now I have to save as and then delete everything and then restart generating geometry. As far as cad, sure you can generate basic stuff that you can use to help you machine but its not nx. What sold me on nx is stuff like this Siemens NX Pro Tutorial - how to design extreme flexible parts through horizontal relations - YouTube and their part template studio

mutiny · Aug 26, 2020

plutoniumsalmon said:
Hello.
Esprit templates are great almost just drag and drop. I think they have an option for knowledge base or something like that, that might make it faster but I dont have that. What I dont like about my version of esprit is the lack of ability to do a second or third op in the same file. Right now I have to save as and then delete everything and then restart generating geometry. As far as cad, sure you can generate basic stuff that you can use to help you machine but its not nx. What sold me on nx is stuff like this Siemens NX Pro Tutorial - how to design extreme flexible parts through horizontal relations - YouTube and their part template studio

Wow, that YouTube channel is a freaking gold mine. Thank you for posting!

Shawnrs · Aug 26, 2020

I would schedule a demonstration from both NX and esprit. Give each place a few your parts and have them battle it out on who can deliver the software better. Asking people which is better is a starting point but have someone that sells and support the software you want to buy from I think is a better way of getting an understanding of which software you want to purchase.

mutiny · Aug 26, 2020

I'm currently at the very beginning of a month long trial of NX. Find a VAR and say you'd like to evaluate the software and their support. I'm currently working with Swoosh Tech which has been excellent so far.

ESPRIT's best offer was to have a sales engineer come for a day to do in person demos. That might work for you, but I appreciate the full month to evaluate NX.

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