Noob looking for advice from experienced on CAM software choice

Good evening, guys -
I have to make a choice as to which CAM software to use. I have the following:
VM-3 Mill Classic Controller 3x only
VF-2SSYT 5x Mill, TSC, DWO/TCP and NextGen Controller
ST-10Y Lathe Classic Controller and live tooling
ProShop ERP
The work is about 1/3 13485 Medical & ITAR, and 2/3 general 3x stuff

I have quotes on Ma$$$terCam for $12k for the 3+2 version; $30k for 5x (includes everything) +15% annual maint on both 3x & 5x versions.

I'm thinking a cloud solution isn't the cards for me (ITAR considerations, mostly) so I think Fusion360 may be a no-go, but perhaps you know it will be fine (I don't know). I have the budget for the $12k, but honestly don't know if that's the best place to spend the $$. Would like to maximize 5x use and minimize air cuts.

Given my gear and needs, could I get some opinions? IMO, if I spent $30k and it saved me from having to hire another guy, that's $$ well spent. But isn't there a developer out there who is developing software to knock the monkey off the post? ProShop stuck a knife in JobBoss's back. Who's going to stick one in MCam or NX or....???

I want to buy the "RIGHT" software and not the cheapest.

Thanks for the thoughts. I'll read all with interest.

If you have (3) machines now then what are you currently using for 5x programming? How complex are your parts? This question has been brought up here more times than can count. You say you have $12K budget for entry level software but will spend $30K on mid level support to eliminate the need for another employee?!?! It's a bit confusing on what your are trying to accomplish as well as what your long term goal with the software is going to be. You could drop $50K on Catia, or NX and have the best but if you don't need it then why pay for it.

But isn't there a developer out there who is developing software to knock the monkey off the post? ProShop stuck a knife in JobBoss's back. Who's going to stick one in MCam or NX or....???

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Not sure about this statement either. why would you want someone to knock some of the best software on the market down? Sounds kinda non productive to me. And the ProShop statement gave me a chuckle. It took less than half an hour for me to send them packing. I'll take E2 or Jobboss over that anyday. The second that guy said if I don't want cloud based ProShop I would have to pay extra for the module to use on my servers and there is no way for my customers to login and check the status of their order or even see a Gannt Chart I realized it was nothing special. And RFQ's have to go out manually??? Yeah, they didn't knife anyone.

g-coder05 said:

If you have (3) machines now then what are you currently using for 5x programming? How complex are your parts? This question has been brought up here more times than can count. You say you have $12K budget for entry level software but will spend $30K on mid level support to eliminate the need for another employee?!?! It's a bit confusing on what your are trying to accomplish as well as what your long term goal with the software is going to be. You could drop $50K on Catia, or NX and have the best but if you don't need it then why pay for it.



Not sure about this statement either. why would you want someone to knock some of the best software on the market down? Sounds kinda non productive to me. And the ProShop statement gave me a chuckle. It took less than half an hour for me to send them packing. I'll take E2 or Jobboss over that anyday. The second that guy said if I don't want cloud based ProShop I would have to pay extra for the module to use on my servers and there is no way for my customers to login and check the status of their order or even see a Gannt Chart I realized it was nothing special. And RFQ's have to go out manually??? Yeah, they didn't knife anyone.

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I think he was more asking, if he buys xxxx software, will it be around for a long time... OP, is that what you are asking?

If so, MCX and NX aren't going anywhere, but that is not to say they won' be cloud based in 5 or 10 years so....?

I think he was more asking, if he buys xxxx software, will it be around for a long time...

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I don't think there is any guarantee of that anymore. 40+ seats of EGS and Delcam modules for nearly 20 years with a couple hundred grand in maintenance per year not including the original purchase price and they are all but gone. Not because someone with better software "Knifed" them but someone with deep pockets bought and dissolved them.

g-coder -
I apologize, in the interest of brevity, I omitted the information you seek in order to answer my question.
I'm actually about 3 or 4 weeks from closing on the purchase of a machine shop. Currently on the floor is the ST and VM. As soon as I close, I will put the VF on order.

My market will require some 5x ability, mostly with the medical stuff. Certainly not all of it, but some of it. My longer term goals are to be able to satisfy demanding customers in Automotive and Medical markets, as well as ITAR-related projects. I will have the capability in the machines, would like a CAM software that allows the use of that capability.

After evaluating Jobboss, it wasn't right for me on the quality side. I didn't go for the 3rd party QMS.

You mention that this topic has been brought up many times here. I'm new to the forum and my search results did not yield good information. If you have links that you could help me with, that would be very much appreciated.

Thanks again,

Tom

That's a fair assessment. Am I getting the understanding that MCAM would be your recommendation?

Do you have any programming experience? NX is probably the most versatile, but a very steep learning curve. I've used mostly MCX, but not any of the newer versions. I used X8 and X9 to program a UMC750 and it worked well enough, but to me the actual full 5 axis paths were a bit of a pain to use. 3+2 was a breeze in MCX. We got simulation and post from Postability, can't say much about programming in other softwares other than basic 3 axis stuff, IMO, 3 axis only you could use most anything. If you want full 5 axis I would try to get some demos at your shop, your machines, and your parts.

OK, this makes a bit more since now. Since it is a turnkey business that you are acquiring that means you would have to pay the license transfer from whoever they are using now, and that's usually about the same as if you buy new.

Mastercam is definitely not my choice of software but in light of Autodesk's recent endeavors to destroy Powershape, Powermill, MoldFlow, Featurecam, PowerInspect, and Partmaker by buying it all up and pushing Fusion it has made the mid level market slim. Mastercam is just simply not worth $30K for what it does. What makes it valuable is the fact in the early 90's they were giving out copies left and right to high schools and trade schools.

What Mastercam did was make sure the market was saturated with people that were proficient with the software and then employers would have no problem finding help. Mastercam basically lived off of this success for 10 or 15 years with no major developments in tool path strategies. While they were kicking back you had EGS building the feature recognition in Featurecam and DP coming up with new cutting strategies in Esprit. During this evolution and battle of the CAM's EGS and DP basically integrated each others features into Featurecam and Esprit. Finally, I think around 2012 or maybe a year or two later Mastercam realized they were falling behind big time on their features and started to try to incorporate some feturebased modules but had a hard time. Since their base system was still in place and hadn't been really upgraded they fought with it, or this is what it appeared to me.

They finally introduced the blade module and called it "Feature Based Machining" and came out with the 5 minute blade challenge. It is anything but full blown feature recognition. After you click on a surface it still wants a lot of data entered rather than the way FC or Esprit knows buy your user parameters and tool library what you want to do. I haven't opened Mcam in a few years now other than watching a few vids and they are still way behind on having a good FBM module.

You being in South Carolina you should have no problem finding someone who;s proficient with Mcam so that's going to be the biggest benefit. I do suggest you take a good look at DP Esprit though, In your price range it would be the way to go IMO. You may limit your available programmers but it's so much faster than Mcam to program with.

Kinda off topic here but are you sure you want to get into automotive work as a new shop? And your ITAR are you going to be certified or just compliant? If you’re certified you could snag some work from the local L-3 plants in your area. You've got L-3 Kigre in SC then L-3 Forcex in Knoxville then L-3 A.L.S.T. and Cytera in Orlando. A simple ISO cert and ITAR cert and you could walk out the door with more work than you could handle. Probably 95% of their parts are aluminum so you wouldn't have to work those classic controllers and drives so hard. That $20K retrofit to just get a repair from Haas would suck in a new shop.

Trying to keep up with low margin automotive production would absolutely drive me crazy. There's a reason machinist get about 50 emails from recruiters a week looking for people with automotive backgrounds. Nobody stays long.

ITAR certified?

ITAR certified?

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Certified/Registered you get the point. Many Many times I've had suppliers list ITAR compliant on my Vendor Applications only to reject them because they had no registration.

[h=1]ITAR Registered Certification Definition[/h][FONT=&quot]
ITAR stands for The International Traffic in Arms Regulations and is a set of government regulations related to defense exports. The regulations include policies and provisions related to prohibited exports, imports and sales to or from specific countries, exceptions among many others.

All manufacturers, exporters and brokers of defense articles, related to technical data and defense services as defined on the United States Munitions List are required to register.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Registration is accomplished by completing a statement of registration, available for download on the US Department of State's website. Once registration is complete, the organization will receive a registrant code. Registrations are valid for 12 months from the date of issuance. Registration states that an organization is stating they are aware of what ITAR requires of them and they are in compliance with these requirements.[/FONT]

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It's only $500 a year but money well spent.

g-coder05 said:

Certified/Registered you get the point. Many Many times I've had suppliers list ITAR compliant on my Vendor Applications only to reject them because they had no registration.



It's only $500 a year but money well spent.

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Can you legally claim you are compliant if you are not registered? You used to be able to claim compliancy with NIJ for armor but not actually have your product NIJ Listed. Compliancy simply means your product would pass the required tests, they have since changed that and now your product must be listed in order to claim compliancy, which goes against the English definition of compliant.

I try to stay away from anything guberment related, IMO there is far too much money to be made elsewhere to make it worth dealing with them.

RXI said:

I have quotes on Ma$$$terCam for $12k for the 3+2 version; $30k for 5x (includes everything) +15% annual maint on both 3x & 5x versions.

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I'd double check your numbers something doesn't sound right.
the 3+2 version is the multiaxis version, isn't it?
And we're not paying 30% maintenance.

I'm assuming that includes Lathe as well. You can do positional work with just the 3D module, but you're missing out on the advanced multiaxis paths.

@ Gcoder. I agree that MCX FBM is garbage. At least up until X9, can't say about 2017+ versions....

Although I would argue that it is very easy to program with IMO. It seems pretty intuitive to me, but I have been using it since 2005 or so...

I really really like the menu layout compared to say NX. I hated hated the stupid pop up menus in NX!!! I like that MCX has one menu, and it's layed out so you select the toolpath type (after picking a base one like contour) ie 2d contour, ramp, 3d contour, etc. The you pick tool (and holder if you want/need), then cut parameters, etc etc.

First off 3+1 and 3+2 are no-brainers because it simply involves typical 3-axis programming and the post calculates the rotations. If 3+2 and 3+1 will do for most of your needs then you are already capable with your 3-axis experience. I can't speak for Creo or Catia but NX really isn't that steep of a learning curve anymore; that's old opinion. A long time ago it certainly was true and that was because they, and other top tier software, were doing so doing so much more than everyone else at the time. (Such as CAMAX and doing 5-axis when Mastercam wasn't even doing surfaces yet) Looking at my colleague's MC 2020 and 2021, there are so many clicks that the old saying about learning curve has not been true for a long time.

It's been about two years since I obtained quotes on NX licenses but then it was about $36K for their top license bundles and I believe that included probing, full on modeling, assemblies and drafting. If you don't need the latter then there are cam only licenses which cost less money. You may be able to get a multi seat discount as well. If you are looking at a 5-axis Mastercam license for the price you stated ( I had no idea it was that price) then I would definitely opt for NX over Mastercam any day; there is not much comparison. NX doesn't have the equivalent of the "Mastercam Tax". IMO CNC Software should spend more time refining their code, make it calculate more efficient and address bugs but they prioritize introducing new features over taking care of the existing software.

If you need it all I highly recommend a single, all in one solution and don't buy two or three softwares that are "integrated". True integration is a single product which can handle all your tasks seamlessly.

RXI said:

Good evening, guys -
I have to make a choice as to which CAM software to use. I have the following:
VM-3 Mill Classic Controller 3x only
VF-2SSYT 5x Mill, TSC, DWO/TCP and NextGen Controller
ST-10Y Lathe Classic Controller and live tooling
ProShop ERP
The work is about 1/3 13485 Medical & ITAR, and 2/3 general 3x stuff

I have quotes on Ma$$$terCam for $12k for the 3+2 version; $30k for 5x (includes everything) +15% annual maint on both 3x & 5x versions.

I'm thinking a cloud solution isn't the cards for me (ITAR considerations, mostly) so I think Fusion360 may be a no-go, but perhaps you know it will be fine (I don't know). I have the budget for the $12k, but honestly don't know if that's the best place to spend the $$. Would like to maximize 5x use and minimize air cuts.

Given my gear and needs, could I get some opinions? IMO, if I spent $30k and it saved me from having to hire another guy, that's $$ well spent. But isn't there a developer out there who is developing software to knock the monkey off the post? ProShop stuck a knife in JobBoss's back. Who's going to stick one in MCam or NX or....???

I want to buy the "RIGHT" software and not the cheapest.

Thanks for the thoughts. I'll read all with interest.

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I am only in a position to talk about what I have.......Have you looked into Gibbscam? We have that and they have had lots of nice updates the last several years. It will run about the same price as Mastercam. The problem is you have maintenance every year on this too so it really gets expensive.

We are also using Fusion 360 and it's a very good tool, but sounds like it may not meet your needs. Best wishes, that sounds exciting buying a machine shop!

g-coder05 said:

I don't think there is any guarantee of that anymore. 40+ seats of EGS and Delcam modules for nearly 20 years with a couple hundred grand in maintenance per year not including the original purchase price and they are all but gone. Not because someone with better software "Knifed" them but someone with deep pockets bought and dissolved them.

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That seems to be the business model of the day. Instead of outperforming your competition, buy them and make them disappear. It isn't just in the software industry either...