Realities of Fusion 360 in a Machine Shop? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Easiest software to draw, model, or adjust geometry or "go back in time" if you got ahead of yourself modeling.

    HOWEVER, I have a 6core processing built computer that is only 3 yrs old and even simple assembly or even a single part will glitch or cause a crash and I am 99% positive it is do the interface to the internet. Not the computer and not the actual internet speed. Two other software(one much older) did not glitch or crash or slow up as much as Fusion did with same file.

    I laugh at how fast I can model/draw with this software. They do updates and do listen to customer feedback to an extent.

    Ps- The price comes in with the post, unless you are real good at making your own.

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    Hi Gooose:
    You wrote:
    "Remove the tin foil hat...they aren't sitting in their skull island lair stealing all your design work and having sweat shop labour manufacturing those components"

    You're correct of course, and nobody but a rabid, uptight, anal, inventor sitting on his very own "special" gold mine thinks otherwise.

    The thing that sticks in everyone's craw is the "Trust us, we'll take good care of you" schtick Autodesk regularly trots out only to behave in typical Autodesk fashion after all.
    The fundamental problem is not the stolen super secret widget design, it's the power asymmetry you accept when you surrender control of the access to your data in this new way without a corresponding benefit to rebalance the scale and make it all worthwhile.

    The rather pathetic yearly software enhancements coming from most vendors (including Autodesk) these days don't qualify as a useful benefit, and don't justify the prices and the creative new handcuffs they are increasingly trying to slide by us to keep the revenue stream alive for them.
    The "convenience" that is sold to us over and over, is how we are being seduced; the notion that we're getting the latest and greatest for no effort on our part is a lie or at least a stretch.
    Anyone with a brain can see this and most object to it; that's why there's so much push-back when they try to find yet another path to riches that doesn't involve actually improving the software in a meaningful way.

    It's shabby behaviour on their part and only a fool trusts their word unconditionally in spite of it.

    So would I switch from an autonomous software to this new toxic dependency...sure I would, but only if there were NO other viable alternatives.
    Fortunately there are alternatives, and they don't cost all that much.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

  3. #23
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    To answer the OP's question: it depends.

    If you're looking at software primarily for 3-axis CAM work, I really like Fusion. The 4th/5th axis features currently available leave a lot to be desired. Indexing is fine (but any CAM program can do indexing, even if it's a user copy and pasting some code around) but I believe the surfacing is not up to doing 'real work' yet. The turning portion is also way, way behind of where it should be, and I think they honestly released it as a 'beta' test. That said, Fusion as a whole seems to get better all the time. I just saw a bunch of the latest improvements to Turning on Instagram, but it's always more "Fusion finally has this standard feature that every other CAM package has - awesome!"

    However, as a design software, I've found Fusion to be almost entirely useless once you're past the hobby/beginner level activities. I'm a professional machine designer, and trying to use Fusion for anything other than the simplest of tasks and assemblies makes me want to throw my computer through the wall.

    I currently use Inventor for machine design on a daily basis (despite my user name) but have used, and will continue to use SolidWorks for design going forward. I have pretty equal amounts of time logged in Inventor and SolidWorks at this point (probably around 7,500-10,000 hours on each) and if given the choice will take SW all day long. I just find it to be a step better than Inventor for the type of work I do (which is extremely fast paced, relatively high-end machine design.)

    I'm exploring some options with the 'Rules-Based Machining' feature, which is similar to Fusion's templates, or MasterCAM's Feature-Based Machining. SW probably falls somewhere in between those two, both on utility and complexity, but I think it could be a huge time-saver. Which is, in my experience, the hallmark of SolidWorks - investing a little time into customization and using the options available generates huge results in productivity down the line.

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    The rather pathetic yearly software enhancements coming from most vendors...

    It's shabby behaviour on their part and only a fool trusts their word unconditionally in spite of it....

    So would I switch from an autonomous software to this new toxic dependency...
    I hope you don't think I'm an Autodesk advocate, I'm not. I've stated my thoughts on Fusion in previous posts.

    The point I'd like to make though, if all these software companies (autodesk, mastercam, dassault, etc) are all making so much money for doing nothing, why don't you guys just whip up a new CAD/CAM software? You could charge just a one time fee, no maintenance, no subscription and you would still make out like bandits...right?

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    Hi again Goooose:
    Nah, I recognize just as you clearly do that it's not that simple and that good CAD and good CAM software is a crucial thing to have, so a reputable company that's working hard to keep making it better is worthwhile to have around and deserves our support.

    I have no problem with spending my pennies to buy good software and to maintain it if it can be shown to be of benefit to me too.
    I just don't do so well if I feel I'm being misled or coerced into something and that's where Autodesk leaves a very bad impression these days.

    I have compassion for their plight; I really do...but not if I'm just enabling.
    I want something decent out of the deal too.
    I got the "decent" once upon a time; it was very worthwhile for me to buy the software rather than bootleg it, at least in part to support the company who was making it possible for me to do new and profitable things.
    But the deal has become startlingly lop-sided....I'm not getting very much anymore to meet MY needs, and I still do have a business to run and value decisions to make

    So are they putting in effort to build their business?
    Undoubtedly.

    Is the fruit of that effort worth re-purchasing over and over and over.
    Your call for your individual circumstances.

    Is it smart to surrender my ability to decide if I'm still getting something worth my while out of the deal?
    No frickin' way.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    Quote Originally Posted by aarongough View Post
    Personally I think the risk is minimal and I'll certainly continue using Fusion. Hopefully I won't be posting to this thread regretfully in a fews years lol
    People used to absolutely adore their Coldfire equipped HAAS machines!
    They tend to have a little different opinion now..........

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    People used to absolutely adore their Coldfire equipped HAAS machines!
    They tend to have a little different opinion now..........
    Did I just see you on Wednesday getting your free T-shirt and eating BBQ at Ellison Machinery during the HAAS Demo Days? ��

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    Quote Originally Posted by len_1962 View Post
    Did I just see you on Wednesday getting your free T-shirt and eating BBQ at Ellison Machinery during the HAAS Demo Days? ��
    Uhh, NO! Actually not just no, but, HELL NO!

    I was right here, listening to that Brother sing...........

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  12. #29
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    I swear at fusion virtually every time I use it, but its CAM actually works, gives me short programs that will fit in my old 1000 line Heidenhain.

    Really my main complaint is lack of a damn book, or really a linear expression of the features.

    Go to the forums is going to cause me to go postal.

    And you can store your data locally, but like mentioned above, I can go home and work on a project I started at work and that is nice.

    The cloud is probably as secure as your computer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamm View Post
    I think Solidworks has a problem on their hands with Fusion. Solidworks added CAM to their offering, which I believe was due to Autodesk bundling in CAM. The thing is, that for the cost of my maintenance on Solidworks, I get the crappy, only works on single parts version of Solidworks CAM. It only does 3-axis (I think, certainly not 5-axis). I can't model in fixtures. It's a pain to set up, and there is very little documentation available, and my VAR has no idea what to do with it. And they want me to pay for a bunch of training, that requires being away from work for a few days (not making any money).

    For the same amount of money, I can get Fusion ultimate, which gives assemblies in CAM, 5-axis, and there is tons and tons of information available to figure out how to use the program. It also has FEA analysis in the same package for the same money. To do that in Solidworks, even after paying more upfront for the higher level licenses, the maintenance on the Solidworks package would be more than Fusion ultimate.

    Solidworks is going to have to respond at some point, or they are going to start losing customers that don't need whatever the latest features of Solidworks are (last features that Solidworks added that I found useful were mouse gestures, and the pop-up menu when you press 's'. How many years ago was that?). I think Autodesk is just going to keep moving into Solidworks' territory.

    I still don't like the cloud, and the ability of Autodesk to cut off subscription customers at any time. I doubt I want to be selling designs based on FEA results that can carry liability for years, but Autodesk can vapourize at any time. But they are out competing Solidworks. I hope that results in Solidworks doubling down on perpetual licenses, and adds assembly functionality to the standard CAM package. I'm not holding my breath.
    I get what you are saying from a CAM point of view but the core Solidworks user literally does not care about cam. Solidworks is a machine design software and they have heaps of users. I use Solidworks everyday in my business and regularly use 3d scan data, routing for piping etc etc. I have fusion 360 ultimate as well for playing on my CNC machines but from a making money point of view fusion is like playschool compared to Solidworks.

    Fusion fea is better than Solidworks in my opinion also, if you fea a lot in Solidworks you learn the tricks but it is not good or user friendly at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Uhh, NO! Actually not just no, but, HELL NO!

    I was right here, listening to that Brother sing...........
    I knew I'd get a rise out of you on that, always like your replies, very colorful.

    what does your brother sing?
    Polka music?
    I thought I heard some coming outa your shop as I drove by on the way to Ellison.

    all kidding aside never have used a brother, only maho, Bridgeport's with ezmill, Hurco and Haas, those that have them love'm, there like the Hurco guys die hards.

    when I taught surfcam at gateway cc I taught a couple of mold makers in Gilbert that use brothers off of Neely and Elliot back around 99.

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  18. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SR910 View Post
    I get what you are saying from a CAM point of view but the core Solidworks user literally does not care about cam. Solidworks is a machine design software and they have heaps of users. I use Solidworks everyday in my business and regularly use 3d scan data, routing for piping etc etc. I have fusion 360 ultimate as well for playing on my CNC machines but from a making money point of view fusion is like playschool compared to Solidworks.

    Fusion fea is better than Solidworks in my opinion also, if you fea a lot in Solidworks you learn the tricks but it is not good or user friendly at all.
    No question that Solidworks is far ahead of Fusion at the high end of CAD. However, I know of a number of local companies that have Solidworks, and don't design machines. It is used for single spare parts, small assemblies, fixtures, etc. At the simpler end of the spectrum, Fusion is getting more and more capable. I suspect Fusion is starting to pick off customers like that. Even if they aren't switching, new companies are probably just starting and staying with Fusion, rather than buy into Solidworks. As Fusion gets better at CAD, more of Solidworks' territory will be vulnerable. It isn't existential for Soildworks, but I suspect Solidworks will have to respond somehow as Fusion starts eating into their market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamm View Post
    As Fusion gets better at CAD, more of Solidworks' territory will be vulnerable.
    Perhaps, but you're forgetting that they are also eating their own flesh via. Inventor, which is also incompatible with Fusion ( natively )

    So, assuming Fusion gets to critical mass, then what? Pull an Autodesk and discontinue one or the other?

    Ditto on the CAM side. They have now what 4, perhaps 5 different CAM offerings, all incompatible with one another.
    Hell, in the latest release of FeatureCAM, the newest interim "patch" now removes even the ability to open legacy 32bit files created by less-than 3 years old versions,
    effectively making it incompatible with itself for Christ's sake!

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    Quote Originally Posted by len_1962 View Post
    when I taught surfcam at gateway
    Were you there when Phil Buggs was teaching Featurecam? Was around 02-03 I think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Perhaps, but you're forgetting that they are also eating their own flesh via. Inventor, which is also incompatible with Fusion ( natively )
    I'm aware of Inventor. I've never used it so I'm not familiar with how similar or dissimilar it is to Fusion. Solidworks has a much larger install base. There is the possibility that when they eat their Inventor market, they are eating more of the Solidworks, causing a net win for Autodesk. Also, since Fusion users are tied tighter to Autodesk than users that are on perpetual Inventor licenses, it will eventually give Autodesk more power to squeeze money out of it's users. This seems to be consistent with Autodesk's direction to move everyone over to subscription.



    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    So, assuming Fusion gets to critical mass, then what? Pull an Autodesk and discontinue one or the other?
    Well, they are Autodesk.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Were you there when Phil Buggs was teaching Featurecam? Was around 02-03 I think?
    At that time I got the SolidWorks class started, Jim Ragasis got me in to instruct it during the evening time slots, taught it their until about 2004/05 until it was taken over by The "name we shall not speak".

    he did the same to my surfcam class, I started that one too.

    when I taught surfcam Dick Gephart or Dick Smith was teaching GIbbs don't remember which one because one was the SolidEdge guy and the other Gibbs, then John Gulsted took over the Gibbs training, now he is with MLC CAD selling and instructing MasterCAM

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    So with all the guys running Solidworks or Inventor, I understand from a design standpoint or doing assemblies it probably is faster too you, but what are you using for the CAM side, the processor side?? What are all the added costs? What headeaches did you or do you have.

    My biggest one...(joking).. if to run c or y-axis and view tool orientation correctly I have to upgrade to the "Ultimate" package. I do not need it for HSM toothpathing or 5th axis, just that. SO looking at another $1000 maybe to upgrade plus the yearly fee. However I can design, cam, and post with it(made my own post or you can find one and edit it to your liking). So all in not to bad for the simple things I do with it.

    What I really would like to know from JohnnySolidworks is whether you truly can draw single parts without knowing some dimensions(make the part look pleasing to the eye as well) faster than Fusion360. That to me is where I am fast. Just would like to know your opinion on that with the constraints I gave you.

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    I run Solidworks for CAD, HSMXpress for 2.5D CAM work (free and integrated) and Fusion 360 Ultimate for all other CAM. I import my Solidworks parts/assemblies into Fusion. I can work pretty efficiently like this but not as efficiently as when I used HSMWorks exclusively.

    I can't comment on whether you are faster than me modeling an object without any dimensions. I only do that sort of thing with a pencil and piece of paper before opening Solidworks.
    Last edited by BugRobotics; 06-15-2018 at 08:58 AM. Reason: I was a poet and didn't know it

  26. #39
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    IDK- I've come around to Wheelie's opinion that Autodesk really did fuck over a lot of folks who had invested in perpetual licenses. I think the guys caught up on the shitty end of the Autodesk strategy have very good reason to think that the company is a bunch of fuckin' crooks.

    From an unemotional and uninvested position though, I think Autodesk went into the Perpetual > Subscription business model knowing full well that a vocal percentage of the user base was going to get fucked over no matter how they went about it, and a rational Cost:Benefit analysis probably came to the conclusion that subscription offers a healthier business model for everyone involved that it was worth it.

    Fusion is a bit of a different beast because it came out post-transition and is a product built from the ground up for the subscription model. Shockingly low pricing. Broad market base appeal. Constant development. Minimum Viable Product that evolves into maturity live. Fusion is doing what the internet software guys (Facebook, SalesForce, Google, AWS, etc) have been doing for about 10 years with great success.

    Folks on here talk about Autodesk having their teeth in your balls, but WTF are they really gonna do? Double the price to $600 a year? The pricing is so low that a Fusion subscription is 1/8th the cost of my SolidWorks maintenance. They could triple that price and still undercut maintenance on nearly every other CAD/CAM package by a mile.

    In the end, asking if Fusion 360 is right for the machine shop is like asking if any other piece of equipment is right for your shop. The answer is: "It depends!"

    It depends on the kind of work you do. It depends on how finicky your clients are about IP security. It depends on what your current CAD/CAM situation is. It depends on the kind of equipment you run.

    If you're making 5 axis Inconel parts on a Yasda that go into super secret nuclear fission powered space shuttle door gunner penis pumps? No. Do not use Fusion 360.

    If you're Skippy Bob Co Machine Shop doing job shop work for local tractor makers and dirt bike riders, and you're doing so with a pirated seat of SolidWorks 2012 and MasterCam 5? Yea, you should step into the modern era and add Fusion to your toolbox, you would be stupid not to.

    Most of us fall somewhere in between, but Fusion is a totally viable tool at such a low cost, why not fire it up and see how it chooches for your needs?

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  28. #40
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    I don't like the lack of user control of updates, Autodesk have released some really shit updates for Fusion and you don't get the choice to see if a version is stable before they spoil your day

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