Realities of Fusion 360 in a Machine Shop? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    They have a fairly straightforward release schedule at this point, so one could always set a reminder for a day or three ahead of time, run in offline mode until feedback shows up after the update before you let it back online.

    Hell, you can't even do that with Windows 10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky961 View Post
    Do you seriously expect this to be any better with Fusion360 - or ANY software package?
    I have SolidCAM here. Their support is 100% top notch. They once even answered an email ticket on a Saturday 20 min after I submitted.

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    I've been a Fusion 360 user for about 2 years. I'm semi-retired, so consequently do mostly one-offs or reworks. Because of my little "niche", I have a ton of models (in their cloud obviously) and post a lot of programs. So far, I've really only been able to muster two significant complaints: 1) for a while it seemed like the Mac version I use was a bit crash prone. That seems to be significantly better in the last 2 updates. And 2) Fusion still does a poor job of handling 2d DXF imports that have a high number of elements (e.g. gear tooth profiles, etc.).

    Before retirement, I managed a development shop for a large company, and we had a LOT of different software: SolidWorks, MasterCam, NX-complete, SurfCam, Esprit, CAMplete for posting to 5-axis, and one or two others. I was spending over $35K/year JUST on maintenance fees. The main reason for all the different software was that I hold to the adage: "The best CAD (or CAM) software in the world is the one you know". haha! So we bought everything required.

    But... truth be told, probably 80%+ of the work we did in that development shop could have been accomplished on Fusion360 (though it was still in its infancy back then).

    As far as the overall general picture of what Autodesk is doing with Fusion 360, I think it's a brilliant business model: They essentially make the software free to use for a huge number of users (starting with probably 90% of the people who have a cnc router in their garage), and make it very inexpensive for many others. They have created what amounts to a GIGANTIC "tech support staff" that costs them nothing. As has been noted earlier in this thread -- if a problem shows up in Fusion 360 that I can't solve, 9 times out of 10 I can Google it and have a written or video solution in 15 seconds. Try that with NX... or Esprit... or even Gibbs.

    And finally... after being a CAD and CAM user since about 1990, Fusion 360 is the first software where I felt I was a participant (albeit a very tiny one) in its development. I participate in their Forums when I feel it's required, I teach other people to use it, and I pay the yearly fee (despite falling far under the "pay" threshold).

    Will some... or many... Autodesk users (Inventor, etc.) feel like they are getting a raw deal? Most likely -- and I don't have a come-back for that. But life isn't always fair: I've been burned plenty of times in my life on all sorts of different software, yet progress marches on no matter how pissed-off I've been.

    Oh... and for models that I absolutely, positively, 100% never want to lose?... I just export a STEP and/or IGES and keep it on a hard drive in a fireproof safe.


    Well there's my 2c. That, and another 3 or 4 bucks might get you a large coffee at Starbucks.

    PM

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  5. #44
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    Some of the responses crack me up. People are so concerned about Autodesk holding them for ransom. Its funny because they have recently taken away the ultimate version and now offer only one version with 5 axis CAM all for $450 a year and old customers who were paying $300 get to maintain that price, and anyone who was paying the $1500 for ultimate now gets to 2 years free and then get knocked down to $450 after. If they suddenly jack up prices then you can just deal with it as it happens and pay more for a while and then find new software. As for the cloud going down, well unless you are some very high end or large shop it just seems like over worrying. Machines go down, people don't show, all kinds of stuff can put your business on hold more so than your CAM being offline for a few hours. If your machines are running jobs and the programs are already created and CAM,your entire business wont be on hold. Computers fails, drives fail, people wipe data by accident. I worked at a company where some in house system went down for weeks from human error and they couldn't make or receive PO's and the entire company was on hold, burning $100k a day.

    For a small shop, I would not hesitate to use Fusion 360 unless you were into very complex tool paths. It's cheap and very powerful, and many people are already using it and there are lots of resources to learn. For the CAD part, its nice to be able to edit small things on a model, but for design purposes its useless to me.

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Perhaps, but you're forgetting that they are also eating their own flesh via. Inventor, which is also incompatible with Fusion ( natively )

    So, assuming Fusion gets to critical mass, then what? Pull an Autodesk and discontinue one or the other?

    Ditto on the CAM side. They have now what 4, perhaps 5 different CAM offerings, all incompatible with one another.
    Hell, in the latest release of FeatureCAM, the newest interim "patch" now removes even the ability to open legacy 32bit files created by less-than 3 years old versions,
    effectively making it incompatible with itself for Christ's sake!
    That's a good bit of info.. I've had featurecam since 2013 and have only upgraded it to 2015. I'm still up to date on my maintenance.. but never upgraded it for two reasons.. first I like where I'm at and didn't need to learn the pitiful upgrades they've added 2'nd.. I'm wary of just what autodesk is putting in to coerce me to sign on to their subscription.. Just got a letter from autodesk stating the maintenance package is coming up due and they have everything positioned to transfer to subscription. oh and if I still want to keep perpetual license package, I need to request a separate maintenance quote at increased rates from them.. this company is becoming bullshit.. :/ wished Delcam had never sold out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eksinger View Post
    That's a good bit of info.. I've had featurecam since 2013 and have only upgraded it to 2015. I'm still up to date on my maintenance.. but never upgraded it for two reasons.. first I like where I'm at and didn't need to learn the pitiful upgrades they've added 2'nd.. I'm wary of just what autodesk is putting in to coerce me to sign on to their subscription.. Just got a letter from autodesk stating the maintenance package is coming up due and they have everything positioned to transfer to subscription. oh and if I still want to keep perpetual license package, I need to request a separate maintenance quote at increased rates from them.. this company is becoming bullshit.. :/ wished Delcam had never sold out.
    You and I are in the EXACT! same boat. Right down to the dates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyman View Post
    Some of the responses crack me up. People are so concerned about Autodesk holding them for ransom.
    I prefer extortion over ransom.
    Can you give me another definition?
    If I switch to subscription, then miss a payment, my software, that I already paid $20k for, quits working!
    Describe that to me as anything other than extortion...........

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I prefer extortion over ransom.
    Can you give me another definition?
    If I switch to subscription, then miss a payment, my software, that I already paid $20k for, quits working!
    Describe that to me as anything other than extortion...........
    That sounds like it should be illegal!

    Charles

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  12. #49
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    It looks like they offer a package deal on their software...







    Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

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    That's what we've got, but honestly since the tier elimination I haven't even opened Inventor LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyman View Post
    Some of the responses crack me up. People are so concerned about Autodesk holding them for ransom.
    Two things all the apologists have in common - a short memory and an inability to see the big picture.

    Autodesk are a known shitty company, with a known legacy of pulling shitty manoeuvres that fuck people over. It is their modus operandi, and it's foolish to assume that they will not throw their customers under the bus whenever it benefits them to do so.

    As Seymour quite rightly pointed out, they now have so many conflicting/overlapping products that it's only a matter of time before there is a "consolidation". No biggie if you are a subscriber, excluding the inevitable data conversions and retraining and lost time that goes along with all of that. But for those who were unwillingly grandfathered in post buyout, who have a capital investment at stake, it's much less cool.

    Fusion 360, for all it's merits, is a blatant market manipulation tool. By pricing it so low AD make the perceived value of competing products seem very bad. Great for the consumer, in the short term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    Two things all the apologists have in common - a short memory and an inability to see the big picture.

    Autodesk are a known shitty company, with a known legacy of pulling shitty manoeuvres that fuck people over. It is their modus operandi, and it's foolish to assume that they will not throw their customers under the bus whenever it benefits them to do so.

    As Seymour quite rightly pointed out, they now have so many conflicting/overlapping products that it's only a matter of time before there is a "consolidation". No biggie if you are a subscriber, excluding the inevitable data conversions and retraining and lost time that goes along with all of that. But for those who were unwillingly grandfathered in post buyout, who have a capital investment at stake, it's much less cool.

    Fusion 360, for all it's merits, is a blatant market manipulation tool. By pricing it so low AD make the perceived value of competing products seem very bad. Great for the consumer, in the short term.
    Egg-fuggin-zactly!!!!!!!

    AutoDICKs is most definitely looking long-term with every move they make. Just like I was when I purchased FeatureCAM.
    Which I am now pretty much stuck in 2015 with. Because of AutoDICKs.

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    I have SolidWorks and SolidCAM here and I do like both. Lately I've been thinking of giving F360 a try for some turning programming (don't have any turning modules for SolidCAM) but this thread has me thinking I'll leave it alone.

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    Both good and bad in this sw and this thread.

    Adesk is a well known bait/switcher, for 30 years.

    But as was said they cleverly created a great large user base of free sw testers.
    This is making the product much better, very fast, very cheap.

    What adesk is doing, is making a public role model for how cad and cam should work, for very low cost.
    I doubt they realize this.

    Once fusion is pretty good to excellent, 1-2-3 years, adesk will likely try to extort 1000$+ fees from commercial users.
    Per year.
    What will happen is endless open source versions (semi os) using the autodesk supplied knowledge base and threads will make a similar product, somewhat free.

    This is not all good, or all bad.
    When everyone will get free os versions of cad, cam, parametric modelling, etc. the barrier to entry will crash in complex work.

    So endless small operators will underbid everyone, as before, before understanding their real ongoing costs.
    Otoh, extra markups will disappear on complex 5 axis undercuts, etc.

    Very cheap cad/cam sw - 5 axis- is probably a huge economic benefit overall - but a major loss in the short term.
    Small shops can get into 5 axis work, and big shops will lose revenue, profits, and people.
    It is a very complex issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    conflicting/overlapping products that it's only a matter of time before there is a "consolidation". No biggie if you are a subscriber, excluding the inevitable data conversions and retraining and lost time that goes along with all of that. But for those who were unwillingly grandfathered in post buyout, who have a capital investment at stake, it's much less cool.

    .

    Most recent victim: Partmaker
    Sure, you get Featurecam instead, but apparently it ain't the same with missing capability in multi path turning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Most recent victim: Partmaker
    Sure, you get Featurecam instead, but apparently it ain't the same with missing capability in multi path turning.
    What is your confidence level on whether, or how long, FeatureCAM sticks around?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    What is your confidence level on whether, or how long, FeatureCAM sticks around?
    I have zero confidence. They are bleeding it for what they can get out of it. Then its gone.
    Which is very-very sad. It is still one, if not the, best job-shop CAMs. Soo fast.

    I don't think "real" shops are very keen on the whole subscription model (for good reason). Not that it matters. All the software makers are headed that direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I have zero confidence. They are bleeding it for what they can get out of it. Then its gone.
    Which is very-very sad. It is still one, if not the, best job-shop CAMs. Soo fast.

    I don't think "real" shops are very keen on the whole subscription model (for good reason). Not that it matters. All the software makers are headed that direction.
    I agree.. and am very comfortable with Featurecam as it makes short work out of pulling out geometry and multiple parts are easy to do. Autodesk is counting on the face that you've built up a few years worth of parts and processes already that your won't step outside your comfort zone. that being said I'm not about be held captive just because of my comfort. I'm certainly looking at options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I have zero confidence. They are bleeding it for what they can get out of it. Then its gone.
    Which is very-very sad. It is still one, if not the, best job-shop CAMs. Soo fast.

    I don't think "real" shops are very keen on the whole subscription model (for good reason). Not that it matters. All the software makers are headed that direction.
    They shouldn't be. I've been using Mastercam since '94, so when I was starting up the internal machining department for a small medical device company, that's what I got. Then a few months later they came out with a new series of versions with a UI that I abhor, but with tens of thousands invested I'm locked in until I can justify spending tens of thousands again on another product. If I were on subscription I would have switched away in a heartbeat. And no, a cloud-based "solution" is a non-starter.

    They still get their maintenance fees every year anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eksinger View Post
    I agree.. and am very comfortable with Featurecam as it makes short work out of pulling out geometry and multiple parts are easy to do. Autodesk is counting on the face that you've built up a few years worth of parts and processes already that your won't step outside your comfort zone. that being said I'm not about be held captive just because of my comfort. I'm certainly looking at options.
    "Air-Gap" and guard your Dongle with your life. My CAM 'putor never sees the interwebs.
    I am super lucky in that I have a back-up seat locked away in a safe place! .
    Christmas present from my last employer after he closed his shop. It pays to leave on good terms and not burn bridges.
    It is also legal because it was my name on the contract.
    My seat of MasterCAM is on an old dinosaur of an XP PC. That gets fired up maybe once every 3 years?
    Again, never sees the internet. Always works. Computers are quite reliable if removed from the net.

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