Running 5-Axis without G-Code Simulation / Verification?
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    Default Running 5-Axis without G-Code Simulation / Verification?

    Is it mandatory to rung a G-Code simulation / verification software if you are looking to do 5 axis machining?

    I recently purchased a 5axis milling center and this boggles my mind. With this new machine and other investments, I don’t like my cash status right now, so I don’t want to spend money unnecessarily for a bit.

    For now, I can either get; Fusion360 plus a G-Code simulation - verification software or Solidworks / SolidCAM 5 Axis package with build in machine simulation.

    If I am correct, SolidCAM Machine simulation do no simulate machine's rapid movement, it only simulates the cut and this makes me a bit nervous.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by Redonion; 02-19-2020 at 03:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redonion View Post
    Is it mandatory to rung a G-Code simulation / verification software if you are looking to do 5 axis machining?

    I recently purchased a 5axis milling center and this boggles my mind. With this new machine and other investments, I don’t like my cash status right now, so I don’t want to spend money unnecessarily for a bit.

    For now, I can either get; Fusion360 a G-Code simulation - verification software or Solidworks / SolidCAM 5 Axis package with build in machine simulation.

    If I am correct, SolidCAM Machine simulation do no simulate machine's rapid movement, it only simulates the cut and this makes me a bit nervous.

    Thank you!

    I wouldn't recommend it. Verification or simulation inside a CAM system might be OK once you have a bullet proof post. But getting there can be a bit of fun. True verification software is the best way to go. Vericut is great but you still need a bullet proof post. Cost? 3-5K. Camplete is great too but Camplete is your post in addition to being a prime verification package. No extra cost for the first post. I use Camplete and Doosan offers Camplete at no charge for all 5 axis machines. I would not do 5 axis without G-Code simulation. The first mishap without it could very well pay for a seat of verification software. And in my experience, after a major crash, your machine may never be the same again. Protect your investment. It might be a bitter pill to swallow but you will pay one way or another.

    Paul

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    Redonion, what machine did you purchase?

    Regarding the bold below - it can be done without true simulation, but Paul is pretty spot on. I don't use true simulation for my UMC750, but my post is just about bullet-proof. What I see in my CAM system verification (no machine, just tools, holders, fixtures) is pretty much exactly what I get at the machine. Rapid-moves included.

    But having said that, I don't think I'd try that on my new MAM72-63V. It came with Camplete, so I'll stick with that. (and probably continue maintenance once my year is up.)

    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    I wouldn't recommend it. Verification or simulation inside a CAM system might be OK once you have a bullet proof post. But getting there can be a bit of fun. True verification software is the best way to go. Vericut is great but you still need a bullet proof post. Cost? 3-5K. Camplete is great too but Camplete is your post in addition to being a prime verification package. No extra cost for the first post. I use Camplete and Doosan offers Camplete at no charge for all 5 axis machines. I would not do 5 axis without G-Code simulation. The first mishap without it could very well pay for a seat of verification software. And in my experience, after a major crash, your machine may never be the same again. Protect your investment. It might be a bitter pill to swallow but you will pay one way or another.

    Paul
    Pretty well said, Paul.

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    Redonion,

    How much did you spend on your machine?

    Depending on what you purchased, preventing one serious crash could easily cover the cost of CamPlete (which is the software I would recommend).

    PM


    Quote Originally Posted by Redonion View Post
    Is it mandatory to rung a G-Code simulation / verification software if you are looking to do 5 axis machining?

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    You can gat mastercam with a machine sim that is hooked up to a post. Still not Goode sim but 99 % there

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    Redonion, what machine did you purchase?

    Regarding the bold below - it can be done without true simulation, but Paul is pretty spot on. I don't use true simulation for my UMC750, but my post is just about bullet-proof. What I see in my CAM system verification (no machine, just tools, holders, fixtures) is pretty much exactly what I get at the machine. Rapid-moves included.

    But having said that, I don't think I'd try that on my new MAM72-63V. It came with Camplete, so I'll stick with that. (and probably continue maintenance once my year is up.)

    Pretty well said, Paul.
    It is a HAAS UMC-500.

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionmetal View Post
    Redonion,

    How much did you spend on your machine?

    Depending on what you purchased, preventing one serious crash could easily cover the cost of CamPlete (which is the software I would recommend).

    PM
    Around $140K

    Beyond the financial aspects, If I crash the machine it will crash my confidence as well.

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    We bought a post for mastercam from post ability including the simulation package for a new umc 1000 its finally working pretty descent you can turn off the rapids and make them feed moves so it can simulate the moves perfectly
    Don


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    Quote Originally Posted by D Nelson View Post
    We bought a post for mastercam from post ability including the simulation package for a new umc 1000 its finally working pretty descent you can turn off the rapids and make them feed moves so it can simulate the moves perfectly
    Don


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    That would be much easier with Okuma where the max feedrate is actually the max cutting rate.

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    The answer to the immediate question is a hard "no". Code backplotting is not required.

    However, the less confident you are in the post, the more critical supplementary verification becomes. I would not feel confident at all about posting out of either of the programs you mentioned; especially on a machine that is new to the market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D Nelson View Post
    We bought a post for mastercam from post ability including the simulation package for a new umc 1000 its finally working pretty descent you can turn off the rapids and make them feed moves so it can simulate the moves perfectly
    Don


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

    I set up all my posts this way. Especially for HSM toolpaths, I've had far better performance\controlability on 1 offs.
    I also feel the in CAM simulation to be mostly reliable going this route.

    When you get into transform rapids, in my experience, is when things can and will go south fast.

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    With the price of a machine about 250k minimum and software to program it 20 k minimum 4 k for a post processor that works. What’s another 6k for good simulation. We quoted a waspaloy job last week the material for the job was 105k for not very much material how could you not have your ducks in a row?
    Don


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    I ran a Roeders RXP500DS with pallet changer which at the time was was around just shy of around 400euro. Which I programmed with HyperMill and didn't even check the toolpath in HyperView which is HyperMill's own machine/part/tool verification software. All the the tool paths the came out of HyperMill were spot on. One thing to point out, 90% of parts going to the machines were of the same style of part, just size and scale changes, so the toolpaths used were of the same nature. once one part had been run through with an operator watching (myself) I would then load the robot and run the batch off. If I was doing one offs, the reassurance of vericut would have been nice.

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    Take this with a grain of salt...I do 3+2 no simultaneous 5x toolpaths, I define my toolholders correctly and model all my work holding, and simulation In MasterCam works fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    I wouldn't recommend it. Verification or simulation inside a CAM system might be OK once you have a bullet proof post. But getting there can be a bit of fun.
    Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    I don't use true simulation for my UMC750, but my post is just about bullet-proof. What I see in my CAM system verification (no machine, just tools, holders, fixtures) is pretty much exactly what I get at the machine. Rapid-moves included.
    Is there way to check the post’s reliability? When will you assume a post is bulletproof?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redonion View Post
    Is there way to check the post’s reliability? When will you assume a post is bulletproof?

    When you don't crash your machine! There was a time when there was no CAM simulation or machine verification software. You grit your teeth, crossed your fingers and put a lucky rabbits foot in your pocket. Test your programs in plastic with simple, short programs to test your code. Most crashes don't happen while cutting. They happen on approaches and retracts to and from the part and between toolpaths. One big deal are singularities. Look that up related to five axis machining.

    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    When you don't crash your machine! There was a time when there was no CAM simulation or machine verification software. You grit your teeth, crossed your fingers and put a lucky rabbits foot in your pocket. Test your programs in plastic with simple, short programs to test your code. Most crashes don't happen while cutting. They happen on approaches and retracts to and from the part and between toolpaths. One big deal are singularities. Look that up related to five axis machining.

    Paul
    Haha I was going to say he exact opposite- when you have a crash, it's not working!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redonion View Post
    Is there way to check the post’s reliability? When will you assume a post is bulletproof?
    In all seriousness, it may never be "bulletproof" but be 99.9% there. I ran a UMC750 for maybe a year or so without any issues. Then one day, BOOM! For some reason my post didn't change planes back to G17 for a drill op and my spot drill ran full rapid in Y+ We were on maint for MCX and got it fixed where right before (maybe after) the toolchange it automatically posted a G17, even if all the work was only done with AC at zero (no rotary moves)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redonion View Post
    It is a HAAS UMC-500.



    Around $140K

    Beyond the financial aspects, If I crash the machine it will crash my confidence as well.
    Where in FL are you? You can PM me if you want, I am in the Tampa area so I might be able to help if you are close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    When you don't crash your machine! There was a time when there was no CAM simulation or machine verification software. You grit your teeth, crossed your fingers and put a lucky rabbits foot in your pocket. Test your programs in plastic with simple, short programs to test your code. Most crashes don't happen while cutting. They happen on approaches and retracts to and from the part and between toolpaths. One big deal are singularities. Look that up related to five axis machining.

    Paul
    I had to look it up, Scary stuff!

    YouTube explanation

    Other Thread
    Dealing with Singularities in 5-axis Machining using TCP / TRAORI

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