Sandvik acquires Cambrio (GibbsCAM)

So I invested into SDVKY when I heard they bought CGTech awhile back…and I had no idea they acquired Gibbs until I was scrolling thru my Fidelity news feed.

All these big bois buying up the small fries can be good for customers sometimes, but also bad in a lot of ways. Thoughts? Sandvik really seems to be setting up their software arm for success out of nowhere to be honest. Since when do they care about software?

Either way their stock has been “meh” but it’s a long term play in the industrial metals field for me.

I don't have much to say about this other than the Sumitomo mothership was quite disturbed by this. Our particular branch uses Gibbscam; and the president was sure to fire off lots of emails to make sure we're careful about what we send to our reseller.

SumiSpy said:

I don't have much to say about this other than the Sumitomo mothership was quite disturbed by this. Our particular branch uses Gibbscam; and the president was sure to fire off lots of emails to make sure we're careful about what we send to our reseller.

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This is a really good question / comment / inquiry.

My take;

50,000 ft view.

Sandvik does a lot of very good research on mill-turn platforms (thinking 5 axis / B-axis mill turn type platforms.).

They have various B-axis mill turn machines in house to test new and recent products they have developed - constant and ongoing R&D from now and the foreseeable future [Probably long after we are all gone.].

ESPRIT - obviously being one of the main GOOD software for B axis / multi axis / multi-turn / mill turn CAM platforms; was acquired recently by Hexagon group (also being allied to the Okuma ecosystem in part).

So Sandvik pouncing on Gibbs-cam sort of makes sense, given how many CAD/CAM related companies have been acquired by AD*.

Personally (my own narrow view through the prism) there are many things that could be improved with Gibbs-cam to make it a better experience for B-axis / 5 axis mill-turn - "Like" or EVEN BETTER than Esprit. [Not bashing Gibbs ].


Autodesk has acquired a number of CAD/CAM companies and many companies in the 3d / professional 3D graphics and info graphic arena.

People "Hope" that the functionality of a particular and favored (by users) AD acquisition would make it into other AD (less expensive) products, but in practice this is very difficult to achieve especially in a cost effective and efficient manner. "Hacking"-through someone else's code base and engineering some sort of "wrapper-ed " compatibility - that's a lot more difficult and $$$$$$$-intensive than what most people normally suppose. Really good and difficult to understand core capabilities and modules might be "Ported" over to other AD products, but in large measure it IS a competitive buyout in most cases as a more efficient and cheaper way to achieve "Market share".

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In the case of Sandvik acquiring Gibbs-Cam , I think or perceive that as a GOOD thing (maybe). As it is within Sandvik's interest to further develop and enhance the raw capabilities of Gibbs-Cam esp. for mill turn machines/ 5 axis multi tasking machines that are becoming increasingly more relevant.

~ Given that Sumitomo makes really good products for 5 axis mill turn type applications (and obviously much else besides) that could be a win-win,

But OTOH I know with MAZAK integrex control and digital integration and mirroring of machines for office programming the 3D geometric tool libraries are more plug and play with the Sandvik products.

Not exactly sure how fine that goes to the individual "Insert" geometry. - others here would know better.

I suspect long run that may be of benefit to Sumimoto(sp) to make GibbsCam better but seems Sumimoto might have to engage with the MTBs more directly just to make things as equally "convenient" as the Sandvik - MAZAK / integrex relationship. Smaller segment of the market (obviously) but these days everything seems so marginal.

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* In short I don't think it's a reason for Sumimoto to panic, and could actually be of mutual benefit. But maybe I'm missing something super obvious. I can understand why "Peeps" would be triggered given how AD has been acquiring companies for market share. ~Competitive buyout- that inadvertently leans into monopolisticly(sp) styled advantages.

Jim Jannard - founder of Oakley and RED (Digital),

Basically said and I paraphrase "The mistake young entrepreneurs and innovators make is that they take the first $20M that is thrown at them and then check-out". (Probably on a beach somewhere.).

His point being that (at least according to him) if you want to be a billionaire (per se) then you need to keep at it and not be seduced by such short term offers to be bought as a nascent company - that will essentially have one "Benched" and out of the loop / organization.

In the case of Gibbs-Cam, Esprit and others the company founders have gone through thick and thin and crisis after crisis (decade on decade), and still try to pursue more lofty and technical dreams - in some cases with technology that might have at least a fifteen or twenty year arc to it before being officially released or incorporated into the base offering.

So when said founders are reaching their mid 60's early 70's in age and suddenly AD comes along and and throw $80M in your face (or some such number) then that's really hard for these individuals to resist.

In a way the board or founders kinda 'Age-out".

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~ Oddly/ tangentially, I see similar things happening in the oil/gas industry + fracking where smaller companies are acquired and conglomerated in unstable and tough times. + various bubbles that have reached their 'Apex". Market share + who has the deepest pockets. The idea being to own an industry: by analogy maybe Sandvik protects their interests by preventing a seemingly inevitable acquisition by Autodesk.

cameraman said:

* In short I don't think it's a reason for Sumimoto to panic, and could actually be of mutual benefit.

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I agree with you completely. I'm optimistic that this is going to help this software and the support for it get better. We're in the middle of getting a 5 axis mill-turn (with sub spindle and lower turret) going and it's been an aggravating experience with Gibbscam and our reseller thus far.

In regard to company worries - What we do isn't rocket science (I work at the shop that makes custom tooling as well as some shelf-stocked tool bodies), there isn't much that Sandvik is going to learn from us from a Gibbscam file that they couldn't by just buying a tool off of the shelf. I just found it a bit humorous how much intra-company communication this acquisition caused. Communication is basically non-existent here.

Yea in the last 12 months there has been quite a bit of consolidation within the CAE industry...you see it with ADSK obviously but some of the larger companies are quietly (or not quietly) buying up the smaller outfits.

One thing have my ear to the ground on is CNC Software...now they always pride themselves on being a family owned business through and through. I wonder if a $300 million offer by someone like Sandvik would change their tune. I would bet that they have been approached by multiple companies for a buyout. Either the number isn't high enough or they really are committed to the family model.

As far as Gibbs and Esprit are concerned, I think I trust Hexagon and Sandvik a whole hell of a lot more than I trust Autodesk. Autodesk buys things and throws them into the black void of their giant ecosystem. Things get lost in the shuffle if you know what I mean. They have what, 8 CAM offerings? What the hell is with that? What company really needs to offer that many solutions? It is moronic. They need to streamline - create a professional suite of software and a hobbyist/consumer grade piece of software and make them both really good. Stop cannibalizing wonderful products like Powermill. That product is end of lifed for all intents and purposes.

If ADSK really wanted to capitalize, they would fold a CAD tool into a CAM tool like NX has done and compete with NX. They already have the framework there.

THey must have a master plan but at this point it is impossible to tell whether they are geniuses or absolute morons!

metalmadness said:

If ADSK really wanted to capitalize, they would fold a CAD tool into a CAM tool like NX has done and compete with NX. They already have the framework there.

THey must have a master plan but at this point it is impossible to tell whether they are geniuses or absolute morons!

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That is 100% what they are doing, and I don't understand how it is so confusing because the project to compete against NX is called Fusion 360.

And they are probably going to pull it off. They've hired or acquired some serious talent in the industry and the organization is deeply committed to seeing Fusion actually compete at that level. The Fusion team is local to me and my personal interactions with them make it clear that they are smart, aware, and capable. They also don't make it a secret that Inventor, PowerMill, FeatureCAM, and CAMPlete are (like HSM Works and T-splines before) going to get folded 100% into Fusion and their standalone apps will be sunset.

My sense is that it is a long ways off before PowerMill or Inventor gets killed though; the transition to subscriptions was a bit traumatic. I've directly brought up the experience people on this forum had with the subscription thing to high level Autodesk folks, and they are clearly disappointed in how the sales and executive side went about all of that (they didn't use this word, but I would describe their overall attitude about it as ashamed). Also note that everyone from the C-suite who was involved in that transition is now gone from the company, and the folks currently running things recognize that it wasn't Autodesk's proudest moment. I think their cognizance of this fact is going to drive them to fold everything into Fusion with a lot more carrots than sticks.

gkoenig said:

That is 100% what they are doing, and I don't understand how it is so confusing because the project to compete against NX is called Fusion 360.

And they are probably going to pull it off. They've hired or acquired some serious talent in the industry and the organization is deeply committed to seeing Fusion actually compete at that level. The Fusion team is local to me and my personal interactions with them make it clear that they are smart, aware, and capable. They also don't make it a secret that Inventor, PowerMill, FeatureCAM, and CAMPlete are (like HSM Works and T-splines before) going to get folded 100% into Fusion and their standalone apps will be sunset.

My sense is that it is a long ways off before PowerMill or Inventor gets killed though; the transition to subscriptions was a bit traumatic. I've directly brought up the experience people on this forum had with the subscription thing to high level Autodesk folks, and they are clearly disappointed in how the sales and executive side went about all of that (they didn't use this word, but I would describe their overall attitude about it as ashamed). Also note that everyone from the C-suite who was involved in that transition is now gone from the company, and the folks currently running things recognize that it wasn't Autodesk's proudest moment. I think their cognizance of this fact is going to drive them to fold everything into Fusion with a lot more carrots than sticks.

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The issue is that Fusion simply can't compete with NX as it stands. It won't fly for ITAR and a lot of NDA agreements, full stop. It is a non-starter. They need to seriously address that issue if they want to compete.

Another issue? People hate paying for subscriptions on their software. Maintenance is bad enough. Throw a subscription fee on there in perpetuity and you have a lot of people jumping ship.

I just don't see a real path forward for navigating those 2 issues...

metalmadness said:

The issue is that Fusion simply can't compete with NX as it stands. It won't fly for ITAR and a lot of NDA agreements, full stop. It is a non-starter. They need to seriously address that issue if they want to compete.

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ITAR is obviously something Autodesk will be addressing. EVERYONE mentions it, it isn't like a big secret they don't understand.

I use NX (latest version, on continuous release) every day and I dabble in Fusion for side projects just to stay current in it... and I can say that NX really isn't wildly far behind NX as far as prismatic modeling and 3 axis machining is concerned (I can't speak to turning). NX CAD is still a far more powerful tool, but it isn't like there is anything I can't model in Fusion. Where NX wins is on the very cutting edge - Hybrid Additive Machining, Convergent Modeling (direct modeling of facet geometry), Algorithmic Modeling, Class A Surfacing, etc. If you are doing work that requires those tool sets though, you're also getting paid handsomely enough that the NX ROI is a no-brainer.

Another issue? People hate paying for subscriptions on their software. Maintenance is bad enough. Throw a subscription fee on there in perpetuity and you have a lot of people jumping ship.

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The market is saying that the only folks who are really tizzed about subscriptions are the cranky owner/operator class, as is well represented here on PM. Big companies have moved almost ALL of their software to subscription, running on servers they rent from Amazon or Microsoft. People under 30 have never once paid for a big piece of software - just lots of cheap apps and subscriptions.

metalmadness said:

Another issue? People hate paying for subscriptions on their software. Maintenance is bad enough. Throw a subscription fee on there in perpetuity and you have a lot of people jumping ship.

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Have to agree with Greg on this one.

Want to know why I tried NX? Because they launched a subscription model alongside their perpetual one. I didn't want to pay tens of thousands for software I wasn't sure I'd stick with in the long term, especially given the speed of Fusion 360 development.

When it comes to subscriptions, this forum is an echo chamfer that misrepresents average customer preferences.

metalmadness said:

Yea in the last 12 months there has been quite a bit of consolidation within the CAE industry...you see it with ADSK obviously but some of the larger companies are quietly (or not quietly) buying up the smaller outfits.

One thing have my ear to the ground on is CNC Software...now they always pride themselves on being a family owned business through and through. I wonder if a $300 million offer by someone like Sandvik would change their tune. I would bet that they have been approached by multiple companies for a buyout. Either the number isn't high enough or they really are committed to the family model.

As far as Gibbs and Esprit are concerned, I think I trust Hexagon and Sandvik a whole hell of a lot more than I trust Autodesk. Autodesk buys things and throws them into the black void of their giant ecosystem. Things get lost in the shuffle if you know what I mean. They have what, 8 CAM offerings? What the hell is with that? What company really needs to offer that many solutions? It is moronic. They need to streamline - create a professional suite of software and a hobbyist/consumer grade piece of software and make them both really good. Stop cannibalizing wonderful products like Powermill. That product is end of lifed for all intents and purposes.

If ADSK really wanted to capitalize, they would fold a CAD tool into a CAM tool like NX has done and compete with NX. They already have the framework there.

THey must have a master plan but at this point it is impossible to tell whether they are geniuses or absolute morons!

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It's not complicated. The master plan is to buy up enough solutions, placate the user base with some improvements, plunder the code base, roll it into a ADSK product, sell it only on subscription, and then slowly strangle the original product to death.

Gotta have that sweet sub money for the quarterly reports and nobody wants to actually keep making a product better to retain customers. That's for suckers.

The MBAs are running that show.

gkoenig said:

That is 100% what they are doing, and I don't understand how it is so confusing because the project to compete against NX is called Fusion 360.

And they are probably going to pull it off. They've hired or acquired some serious talent in the industry and the organization is deeply committed to seeing Fusion actually compete at that level. The Fusion team is local to me and my personal interactions with them make it clear that they are smart, aware, and capable. They also don't make it a secret that Inventor, PowerMill, FeatureCAM, and CAMPlete are (like HSM Works and T-splines before) going to get folded 100% into Fusion and their standalone apps will be sunset.

My sense is that it is a long ways off before PowerMill or Inventor gets killed though; the transition to subscriptions was a bit traumatic. I've directly brought up the experience people on this forum had with the subscription thing to high level Autodesk folks, and they are clearly disappointed in how the sales and executive side went about all of that (they didn't use this word, but I would describe their overall attitude about it as ashamed). Also note that everyone from the C-suite who was involved in that transition is now gone from the company, and the folks currently running things recognize that it wasn't Autodesk's proudest moment. I think their cognizance of this fact is going to drive them to fold everything into Fusion with a lot more carrots than sticks.

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Except ADSK has been fucking customers over for a generation. When they bought HSM everyone knew it was bad news, precisely because they have a reputation.

I'd love to believe you but I'm not young enough to be that foolish.

In fairness, a public companies purpose to extract value from a product for the benefit of the stockholder. We can't be shocked when they pursue that end with vigor.

We also don't have to give them a dime again...ever.

mutiny said:

Want to know why I tried NX? Because they launched a subscription model alongside their perpetual one. I didn't want to pay tens of thousands for software I wasn't sure I'd stick with in the long term, especially given the speed of Fusion 360 development.

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That's the dumbest Shiit I've ever heard in defense of subscription!

So what you gonna do? You spend thousands in NX subscription and likely a bunch more in learning the friggin' thing, only to abandon it in a few years by the anticipation of switching to Fusion.
Or are you planning on keeping NX besides Fusion?

mutiny said:

Have to agree with Greg on this one.

Want to know why I tried NX? Because they launched a subscription model alongside their perpetual one. I didn't want to pay tens of thousands for software I wasn't sure I'd stick with in the long term, especially given the speed of Fusion 360 development.

When it comes to subscriptions, this forum is an echo chamfer that misrepresents average customer preferences.

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Or are you not the average customer?

SeymourDumore said:

That's the dumbest Shiit I've ever heard in defense of subscription!

So what you gonna do? You spend thousands in NX subscription and likely a bunch more in learning the friggin' thing, only to abandon it in a few years by the anticipation of switching to Fusion.
Or are you planning on keeping NX besides Fusion?

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NX solved a problem that I have now that I don't know that I'll have in a year or two.

It takes 6 years before the NX subscription catches up to the perpetual license. Do you honestly not see any benefit to the flexibility afforded by that? Can you not imagine a scenario where the money I'm not spending on a perpetual license is actually being actively used to generate more money than I'll "lose" by being on subscription?

So yes: maybe I will spend thousands only to abondon it in favor of Fusion. The lack of financial lock-in has afforded me that choice. Your situation seems different, if only from using your perspective as evidence. I see your side.

Now pull your head out of the fucking sand, consider that opinion may not be fact, and stop calling shit you disagree with dumb just because it doesn't fit your own narrative.

XD341 said:

Except ADSK has been fucking customers over for a generation. When they bought HSM everyone knew it was bad news, precisely because they have a reputation.

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Back in the day when Autodesk bought HSM Works, I thought it was great news! I was just getting into this game, and there was no flipping way I could hemorrhage $10k for a seat of HSM Works. Within a couple of months of the acquisition, HSM Works became a $2200 a year subscription, and I got onboard immediately, then bought my Robodrill.

Subscription made a piece of software that was inaccessible to me accessible. That is the upside none of you guys ever really admit to. Also, software is not a classic capital asset - you can't sell your license to a 3rd Party. The $26,000 I spent on NX was capital down the toilet that could only pay for itself by it's own bootstraps. Thinking you own software the same way you do a hammer of a mill is a dumb fucking concept.

You guys are mad at Autodesk because they wouldn't let you keep a perpetual license on maintenance. Bad new boys - nobody in the perpetual game is letting you skip maintenance without big penalties! SolidWorks, NX, Esprit, Hyermill, MasterCAM - you skip maintenance and you either need to pay all the years you skipped, or buy a new seat from scratch.

If having up-to-date software is important to you, you're essentially on subscription. The only case where you aren't is if you have a perpetual license, and you keep using the software without updates, to save a couple of thousand per-year/per-seat. None of the software we are talking about are toys, so I really don't see how you would be in a money-making position but be in SO MUCH financial stress that a $2000/yr subscription is a company killer. If you are really at that point, you've got way bigger fuckin' problems than a theoretical navel gazing argument about software business models.

SolidWorks is doing the subscription model now.

https://www.solidworks.com/how-to-buy/subscription-services

With AD - willfully or otherwise they aim or seem to aim to own an industry, one of several.

As per original topic - not sure that Fusion 360 will have good 5 axis mill turn solution within 15 years.

Hence Gibbs being acquired by Sandvik - not a bad thing as Sandvik will seek to improves Gibbs rather than have it tread water and selectively lift a small fraction of it's functionality.

Similar / same for Esprit and Hexagon.

mutiny said:

Now pull your head out of the fucking sand, consider that opinion may not be fact, and stop calling shit you disagree with dumb just because it doesn't fit your own narrative.

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Well, you did not manage to improve the dumbness of your previous post.
If you DO abandon your NX subscription, then all the data, work and everything else goes with it.

( but then again, wondering if the target of this post is not just a kid living in Momma's basement with a half broken laptop and dreams never to be fulfilled .... )

gkoenig said:

bought my Robodrill.

Subscription made a piece of software that was inaccessible to me accessible. That is the upside none of you guys ever really admit to. Also, software is not a classic capital asset - you can't sell your license to a 3rd Party. The $26,000 I spent on NX was capital down the toilet that could only pay for itself by it's own bootstraps. Thinking you own software the same way you do a hammer of a mill is a dumb fucking concept.

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And yet, you have BOUGHT your Robodrill, and you have BOUGHT a seat of NX.
You also did not switch to renting your Robodrill monthly, or modified your NX license to the Subscription model did you?
Why not?

And what YOU won't admit to is that the subscription model is a great asset as an OPTION but not so much as the ONLY CHOICE!
Subscription got your foot in the door for HSM Works, but unless you keep paying the annual fee, you loose access to all the stuff you've ever created!
The longer you subscribe, the more you have to swallow the hook!
You want to switch to NX-CAM? Fine, but you have to keep your HSM subscription if you need access to your old files, else re-create them in NX from scratch!

I don't know about your process and needs, but in my operation I equally work with parts that are a day old or perhaps 50 years old.
Some I make 6 times a year, others I make once every 6 years.

XD341 said:

Or are you not the average customer?

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The average customer for CAD/CAM software is not posting to this forum, no.

Mostly because the overwhelming majority of CAD/CAM users are not the ones who paid for their software. As a group, we are a niche that is actually quite difficult to work with for most vendors - we have high expectations and because we go through both the sales pitch and the user experience, we are in a position to smell the bullshit.

After many years of wanting one, I finally purchased myself a Kaeser SX5 Air Center, now that Portland has a factory Kaeser office here. I am a huge pain in the ass. I optioned it out with the big Clean Air Package, and the filter system that arrived was substantially different from what was shown in the instillation documentation, brochure, and product manual. I don't like the solution they shipped, and I am holding their feet to the fire to get me what I thought I was receiving when I made the purchase. Mind you - everyone at Kaeser has been great to work with, and every item I've received has been of the utmost quality and attention to detail... but I absolutely want the thing I thought I was getting when I signed the purchase order, even down to the minute details.

So yea, we are a pain in the ass section of the market.