Sandvik Group buys Mastercam - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    Hopefully they go subscription based
    why?

    For many that doesn't always work out.

    Sometimes new versions are pushed on you, and you lose features.
    Sometimes it does work and you get a new version for less money.

    It's the lost features that often piss people off. Or the new bugs introduced that didn't exist before.

    When you own it, you can choose to stay at a version and not be hampered by CHANGE. You get stability... but if you fall far behind it becomes a problem to upgrade...

    Just playing devils advocate.

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    Or when a forced update breaks a file that worked yesterday and there's no going back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Or when a forced update breaks a file that worked yesterday and there's no going back.
    yea, that's exactly what I meant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Or when a forced update breaks a file that worked yesterday and there's no going back.
    It is a very real problem...usualy it is best to wait for a stability Update#1 before committing to upgrading. For example that Unified 5 axis crashing issue I have been having. It won't get fixed until then and until then I am SOL and have to just deal with it.

    Another shop nearby always runs 1 year behind the upgrade cycle for this exact reason.

    Would perpetual updates (subscription model) help this? I think hell no! Half the time a company will introduce new features while breaking others and without a "formal release cycle" like Mastercam has it basically becomes a never ending waterfall of issue after issue

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    I just hope they don't go cloud based..... Would like a good option to get away from autodicks one day.

    We have Featurecam on subscription at work and it doesn't force updates I think I'm 2-3 versions behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    No. That would put them in competition with all the machine tool builders whom they need to be friends with to sell their tools.
    What if thy bought a machine tool company that various other MTBs use like Quasar? Then they couldnt get canceled as easily.

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    It has good implications for many. For one thing, it slows the autodesk juggernaut of software takeovers, and provides at least some kind of alternative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasJRizzo View Post
    It has good implications for many. For one thing, it slows the autodesk juggernaut of software takeovers, and provides at least some kind of alternative.
    Hard to say it will have good implications for many. What alternative does it provide that was not already there? MasterCAM was always an alternative. Now if they change something it may be good for many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    So first Gibbscam and now Mastercam. The pool keeps on shrinking.
    Also Esprit bought by Hexagon recently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapatap View Post

    We have Featurecam on subscription at work and it doesn't force updates I think I'm 2-3 versions behind.


    Believe me, you are NOT behind anything!

    As far as the future of MC ...
    I personally am taking the sinister approach ( towards ADSK anyway)
    I am hoping that Sandvik uses it's considerably larger overall muscles and keeps all current purchasing options alive, perhaps sweeten the pot even for
    existing customers.
    They likely can keep the current customers, have enough income to advance the software to gain new ones, and the sweetest thing, hopefully piss off Autodesk!
    Now that MC is out of the reach of ADSK, if Sandvik retains the maintenance model, adds a rental model for ease-of-entry, adds new capability
    or teams up with others, they perhaps can force Autodesk into keeping the Fusion subscription as a loss-leader.
    We all know Powermill and FC is going away, Partmaker and HSM Works is already there, and it's just a matter of time before the subscriber base of those shrinks to
    a level where it cannot help propping up the Fusion development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    they perhaps can force Autodesk into keeping the Fusion subscription as a loss-leader.
    This is why machinists don't understand software. This isn't a physical good with a COGS; it's IP that can be copied and distributed with zero cost. There is no "loss leader" here.

    If Sandvik was smart? They would just give MasterCAM away, and start tightly integrating it with their tools. Speeds and Feeds? Fully automatic and continually optimized. The tool library? Live, and automatically integrated with the Sandvik catalog. Now, that catalog is really unwieldily, but why not integrate it with the material/machine/operation so you can see exactly what Sandvik offers to optimize that cut you're taking? Or how about developing entirely new methods of machining where the CAM system is fully integrated with the tool design (see: Prime Turning).

    Give it away? So how does Sandvik pay for all this? Fully integrated tool sales, right through your CAM system. One click ordering with overnight delivery. You don't even need to push it that hard in the interface; how many of us would love to ditch flipping through tooling vendor's fucking horrific catalogs and dealing with the distributor bozos who take a 50% cut of the sale and add no value? Jesus Christ - Sandvik could even guarantee the tool would work because they would know the exact params you used to cut with it!

    This is a smart move for Sandvik if their managerial class doesn't bozo it up.

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  14. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    This is why machinists don't understand software. This isn't a physical good with a COGS; it's IP that can be copied and distributed with zero cost. There is no "loss leader" here.

    If Sandvik was smart? They would just give MasterCAM away, and start tightly integrating it with their tools. Speeds and Feeds? Fully automatic and continually optimized. The tool library? Live, and automatically integrated with the Sandvik catalog. Now, that catalog is really unwieldily, but why not integrate it with the material/machine/operation so you can see exactly what Sandvik offers to optimize that cut you're taking? Or how about developing entirely new methods of machining where the CAM system is fully integrated with the tool design (see: Prime Turning).

    Give it away? So how does Sandvik pay for all this? Fully integrated tool sales, right through your CAM system. One click ordering with overnight delivery. You don't even need to push it that hard in the interface; how many of us would love to ditch flipping through tooling vendor's fucking horrific catalogs and dealing with the distributor bozos who take a 50% cut of the sale and add no value? Jesus Christ - Sandvik could even guarantee the tool would work because they would know the exact params you used to cut with it!

    This is a smart move for Sandvik if their managerial class doesn't bozo it up.
    The loss is the cost of development and acquisitions. I can't remember when I first installed the Inventor Fusion preview, I want to say 2010/11? That product was in active development for the first half of the last decade with no revenue stream, and the latter half with very small revenue stream - it's only in the last year or two that F360 has been generating income. Then of course they bought Delcam in 2014 to funnel IP into the Fusion project, that cost $286 million. Then they fought with the Delcam user base for a good few years trying to move everyone onto subscription, so they were not making much money from Delcam products during that time either.

    If I was being pedantic, I would make the point that cost of distribution is also not zero. I don't know if AD are using AWS, Azure or direct partnership with the likes of Akamai etc., but it costs money in any case.

    Anyway, regarding Sandvik, you are preaching to the choir. They've been developing all that for years. They have that infrastructure pretty much ready to go, it's all integrable using ISO 13399, which they codeveloped over a decade ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post

    Give it away? So how does Sandvik pay for all this? Fully integrated tool sales, right through your CAM system. One click ordering with overnight delivery. You don't even need to push it that hard in the interface; how many of us would love to ditch flipping through tooling vendor's fucking horrific catalogs and dealing with the distributor bozos who take a 50% cut of the sale and add no value? Jesus Christ - Sandvik could even guarantee the tool would work because they would know the exact params you used to cut with it!

    This is a smart move for Sandvik if their managerial class doesn't bozo it up.
    With Sandviks prices you'll be wishing for a maintenance fee. I like their tools and they work well, but JEZUS they are damn proud of them to the point it feels like they don't want to let them go.

    I just hope they don't take Mastercam's support and make it like their own. "Oh you're only spending $80k with us a year? Well I suppose we can throw you a bone and maybe send a representative your way in a year or so."

    Basically how it feels with NX and the inexplicable changes they do that feel like they were done solely for one of their massive customers. I swear that's why they enabled contact output on by default as well as the drafting changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    I swear that's why they enabled contact output on by default as well as the drafting changes.
    Alexander from NX said it was done at the behest of some big European machining trade group, not a particular customer. Very odd, as I don't know anyone who programs to contact point and comps the full diameter of a cutter in-control, only wear tweaks. I think I was the first guy on the NX forum to bitch about it... They fixed it in 1984 (I think?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Alexander from NX said it was done at the behest of some big European machining trade group, not a particular customer. Very odd, as I don't know anyone who programs to contact point and comps the full diameter of a cutter in-control, only wear tweaks. I think I was the first guy on the NX forum to bitch about it... They fixed it in 1984 (I think?)
    Pretty sure you were. I still can't post there, had a few things I've been wanting to bring up about 1980. I send in emails once a month now to the community forum email and have yet to get any replies. At least a fuck off would be nice.

    I'd like to know what this trade group is and do they supposedly represent the actual people who use CAM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    This is why machinists don't understand software. This isn't a physical good with a COGS; it's IP that can be copied and distributed with zero cost. There is no "loss leader" here.
    That, coming from a guy who never misses the opportunity to defend Autodesk's strategy of going subscription-only, by citing the insanely high cost of software development at this level......

    Other than that, read Gregor's response and make up your mind one way or another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    I think I was the first guy on the NX forum to bitch about it... They fixed it in 1984 (I think?)
    So were you an I-DEAS or a Unigraphics user ?

    I'm gonna guess Uni ... but not sure where you found a forum in 1984 ? Mailing list ? Or newsgroups ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    That, coming from a guy who never misses the opportunity to defend Autodesk's strategy of going subscription-only, by citing the insanely high cost of software development at this level......
    You are confusing a different revenue model with a customer acquisition tactic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    So were you an I-DEAS or a Unigraphics user ?

    I'm gonna guess Uni ... but not sure where you found a forum in 1984 ? Mailing list ? Or newsgroups ?

    NX ditched annual releases and moved to continuous release, with a 4 digit number indicating precisely what version you are on. Major releases with new features happen in June and December, with monthly updates in between for bug fixes and the like. The current version is 1988. In reality, the more users switch to the continual release model, the less anyone cares about precisely which version you are on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    I feel like I knew this was happening....

    my post from 7/14/2021:

    "One thing have my ear to the ground on is CNC Software...now they always pride themselves on being a family owned business through and through. I wonder if a $300 million offer by someone like Sandvik would change their tune. I would bet that they have been approached by multiple companies for a buyout. Either the number isn't high enough or they really are committed to the family model."
    Money talks, bullshit walks. It's been that way since the dawn of time.


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