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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    ... In reality, CAD/CAM software is a highly complex beast sitting atop other highly complex beasts ...

    Dude, I know you are not just a shill for one ( any one ) software company.
    I pretty much know that.
    At the same, you are absolutely fucking insane trying to spew the most rotten bullshit about the reasons why current trends go where they are headed!

    I know you are smarter than that, but if you do actually believe that it is driven by technology and not profits, then I am truly sorry not only for you, but all the other assholes you infect!!!

    And with that said, if you read some of the comments on the Autodesk forum, just how fucking dumbass stupid moron idiot do you have to be to trade in your permanent license???
    No more maintenence? Fine, Fuck You!
    I'll keep the permanent license as-is with the now frozen version, and I'll subscribe to the new one if/when I absolutely need to.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    I would say 2 things:

    1- Fusion is incredibly reliable. You are living in a fantasy land if you think SolidWorks, MasterCAM or NX don't also run into reliability issues that will make you pull your hair out on occasion. The issue with Fusion is a lot similar to the days when folks thought Glocks were unsafe because the vast majority of negligent firearms discharges you heard about from cops were with a Glock - turns out, that is because Glock has like 60%+ of the police handgun market (80% for urban departments with a lot of fresh newly minted officers). Fusion is wildly popular with a younger set of users who are deeply internet connected - so every time Fusion hiccups, they think it is the end of the world, the software is unreliable, and total shit. These things are all wildly unstable compared to most software - because CAD/CAM is some of the most complex bits of code in existence.

    2- So many machinists come from a hardware oriented mindset that they just want software that they buy once and will work forever, like a hammer or something. In reality, CAD/CAM software is a highly complex beast sitting atop other highly complex beasts (the OS), trying to work in an ever shifting environment. It is like a living thing that takes a long time to get to basic functional maturity, requires even more investment to get to the level of being advanced, and also requires constant attention to keep it thriving on top of the shifting sands of underlying computing technology and customer needs. All these dudes who are like "I want to spend $10k once, and never update or buy software again!" need to sit the hell down in front of SolidWorks 2009 or a seat of NX6 and stop their bullshit. For all the moaning that nothing ever changes with updates, those seats of CAD/CAM from 10 years ago are archaic pieces of junk compared to their contemporary versions. I guess if you make vintage tractor parts or 2x2x4 aluminum boxes with some holes in them? Great! But if you want to be competitive at turning complex prints into actual parts rapidly enough to produce value people will actually pay you for? The ROI on running contemporary, maintained CAD/CAM that you know like the back of your hand is absurdly high.
    You do realize my newest machine is a 1996 If fusion hadn't updated from when I first got it I would be doing just fine. I don't do retarded complex parts. When/if I have a job that requires a new CAM feature that's when I want to update. Lots of people do great work with old stuff because they are proficient with it and not wasting their time learning new stuff they don't use or trying to find old features that were moved.

    In 10 years will I want something more advanced? Likely. But next week I want everything to be exactly the same as it was and an upgrade to be my decision!

    I have little tolerance for people, business or entities shoving things down my throat at their will. I will do what I want, when I want, how I want. That's the beauty of not owing anyone anything People said I would never make it by not extending credit and terms to customers yet here I am and somehow places that "couldn't" pay on delivery have "figured" out how to.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    You do realize my newest machine is a 1996 If fusion hadn't updated from when I first got it I would be doing just fine. I don't do retarded complex parts. When/if I have a job that requires a new CAM feature that's when I want to update. Lots of people do great work with old stuff because they are proficient with it and not wasting their time learning new stuff they don't use or trying to find old features that were moved.

    In 10 years will I want something more advanced? Likely. But next week I want everything to be exactly the same as it was and an upgrade to be my decision!

    I have little tolerance for people, business or entities shoving things down my throat at their will. I will do what I want, when I want, how I want. That's the beauty of not owing anyone anything
    Sounds like you should suck it up and just keep using crappy auto desk and save up for a newer machine! You're really going to love things like probing and hsm with real ipm behind it.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Sounds like you should suck it up and just keep using crappy auto desk and save up for a newer machine! You're really going to love things like probing and hsm with real ipm behind it.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    Perhaps you are correct, but before making a decision like that I wanted/want to explore other alternatives. I don't know everything out there, which is why I started this thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    Perhaps you are correct, but before making a decision like that I wanted/want to explore other alternatives. I don't know everything out there, which is why I started this thread
    What you're currently doing works. Might have some issues you hate but it does work and it's super cost effective. I'd look for other ways to speed up making parts to get your cost per hour down so you can be more profitable.

    I'm still looking for a magic wand that will just make parts without employees. If you find one I'd like to buy it Sick of Fusion 360 / Affordable Alternatives

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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  9. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spruewell View Post
    Last I talked to a solidworks sales rep (about a month ago), they quoted me nearly $20k for a cad/cam package. I値l stick with my 2009 seat. And I値l continue to run my cludgy old mastercam mill8. New software would be super nice, but I知 super cheap. Trying to save up for a new lathe with Y axis and a sub-spindle.
    Shouldn't have asked them about a cadcam and should only pick features you will actually use.

    You probably don't need simulation, pcb, and all the other features....base solidworks will probably work just fine.

    Solidcam is also much better than solidworks cam. $8000 all in for 3 axis is a deal, especially with Imachining which really does speed up programming. My guys can bang out a simple 3 axis, 3 operation part with some 3d features in under 20 minutes complete with post.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spruewell View Post
    Last I talked to a solidworks sales rep (about a month ago), they quoted me nearly $20k for a cad/cam package. I値l stick with my 2009 seat. And I値l continue to run my cludgy old mastercam mill8. New software would be super nice, but I知 super cheap. Trying to save up for a new lathe with Y axis and a sub-spindle.

    Huh?? So you want to buy a new Y axis sub spindle lathe and run it with 10-15 year old software??

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  12. #48
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    Here is a live video I did yesterday in the BobCAD public facebook group. Not sure if it will show here, but let's try.




    In this video, I walk through 2D pocketing, and 3D Adaptive roughing for open pockets on different Z levels.

    At this time BobCAD offers a stand-alone package called V32 and also a plugin for Solidworks called V8. Both of these packages offer 2-5 axis milling and turning and other features. The license is perpetual ( doesn't expire ) and updates for the software ( service packs ) are installed by the user ( no automatic updates ).

    As a job shop or really any manufacturer, BobCAD's software suite offers many options to speed up programming by capturing and reusing your machining process.

    With that said V32 is not a parametric assembly modeler, for those shops that need higher-end design solutions, that's when BobCAD recommends Solidworks and BobCAM V8.

    The V32 stand-alone package might not be as powerful of a design solution as some primary systems. The design tools it does offer allows for 2D and 3D wireframe surfaces and solids. Because there are no design constraints, you can draw very quickly with it. It also has a CAD history tree keeping track of all your 3D design steps and edits.

    • Operation Stock
    • Check Surfaces
    • Fixture Avoidance
    • Adaptive Toolpaths
    • High-End Surfacing
    • Machine Simulation
    • Multi-spindle and turret support
    • User-configurable post processors
    • Standard Universal File Translators


    And the list goes on, it's 2020 and BobCAD has been busy. Typically the biggest complaints on this board about BobCAD is the sales team, sales process. Who really likes salesman anyway, right? And to be fair anonymous groups like this get "venting posts" all the time.


    Many things have changed about BobCAD and the biggest changes are yet to come. All I can say is IMTS 2020 is going to be awesome!

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  14. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    I know you are smarter than that, but if you do actually believe that it is driven by technology and not profits, then I am truly sorry not only for you, but all the other assholes you infect!!!
    Where we agree is that this is all about money. Where we disagree is that you think this is a move towards higher profits, where I see the move to subscription as fundamentally about survival.

    The core problem is that customers, when given the option of low-cost subscription software versus very high upfront cost software? Go for the subscription model 9 times out of 10.

    So if you are a maker of expensive CAM software, you've seen the story play out in business software. What was once a thriving ecosystem of vendors building CRM, HR, accounting, supply-chain software using the Boxed Model? Has all died and gotten swallowed up by Sales Force. They built up all those apps (or bought out a handful of those vendors), threw them in a web browser, and started charging per user/month. Now Sales Force owns half of downtown San Francisco while the guys they replaced are all nearly 100% forgotten.

    Right now, the perception is that if these guys don't go subscription, they are going to get killed. They likely aren't wrong.

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    @Hardplates

    SolidCam thru SolidWorks might be nice for you, (good free trial and tutorials offered).

    Has anyone tried SolidEdge with Solid_Edge_Cam_Pro ? (also has decent trial period).

    The Siemens PLM folks seem to have a good subscription model for SoldEdge, but didn't know if "Solid_Edge_Cam_Pro" was total "pants" or not ?

    Isn't PowerMill supposed to be the next step up from Fusion ? Isn't it like $10K or something ? [Maybe less for three axis prismatic or full 3 axis contouring ?].

    The guys at Esprit have some really long arc developments that they have been able to incorporate / roll out more recently that looks really impressive in terms of ripple-through changes and workflow ~ Those guys at Esprit seem like a real "Trip" in a good way. They seem to have more passion about the technology... but business is business right ?

    I can't hate on Autodesk (completely) as they are too huge and maybe a matter of time before we are all assimilated - So I have great admiration for any 'Species" of remaining CAD CAM companies and products that have not yet been repurposed and pressed into service by the Borg.


    borg-cube-paper-lantern-6589.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Isn't PowerMill supposed to be the next step up from Fusion ? Isn't it like $10K or something ? [Maybe less for three axis prismatic or full 3 axis contouring ?].
    PowerMill tool paths are starting to show up in Fusion now. Steep and Shallow is one live example, but if you turn on development tools, you'll find a host of PowerMill paths are coming onboard.

    I really don't get the Fusion moaning on here. Looks like their strategy is to keep the basic version up and running for $500/year in perpetuity and if you can't afford that, the problem isn't Autodesk trying to kill you, your problem is that you need to go take some business classes. Looks like the more advanced machining stuff is going to be tacked on as a $120/month addition to that base subscription.

    IDK man... you turn a piece of software that was $30,000 into a piece of software that now costs you $1,950 a year, and people are still going to find a way to bitch, moan, and complain about that just not being good enough for their needs.

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  19. #52
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    Has anyone tried SolidEdge with Solid_Edge_Cam_Pro ? (also has decent trial period).

    The Siemens PLM folks seem to have a good subscription model for SoldEdge, but didn't know if "Solid_Edge_Cam_Pro" was total "pants" or not ?
    I looked at it a few years ago, it was a subset of NX. I'm interested in it now again. I have SE and love it, hate my current CAM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    PowerMill tool paths are starting to show up in Fusion now. Steep and Shallow is one live example, but if you turn on development tools, you'll find a host of PowerMill paths are coming onboard.

    I really don't get the Fusion moaning on here. Looks like their strategy is to keep the basic version up and running for $500/year in perpetuity and if you can't afford that, the problem isn't Autodesk trying to kill you, your problem is that you need to go take some business classes. Looks like the more advanced machining stuff is going to be tacked on as a $120/month addition to that base subscription.

    IDK man... you turn a piece of software that was $30,000 into a piece of software that now costs you $1,950 a year, and people are still going to find a way to bitch, moan, and complain about that just not being good enough for their needs.
    This is a core problem my own company has to contend with the current "App generation" mindset ... Price points are always tricky.

    I thought Fusion was able to work without having to be connected to the internet for long periods of time and it was not mandatory to store files in the cloud ?

    Most 3d graphics and CAD CAM and professional media graphics and rendering software Dooooo crash … [Anyone used to working with 3d studio Max, Softimage, Renderman , Maya etc. etc. if you didn't SAVE every ten to 15 minutes then you could lose work by that weird out of the blue freeze.]. It's not like Word you can leave open up for days if not weeks (other than crazy MS stealth updates).

    Yeah it can be real triple decker sh*t sandwich between operating systems and graphics hardware and drivers and "CAD CAM " software... I've had GOOD years where everything was stable and really bad years where you'd almost give up on a product combination. Overall things seem to be becoming more reliable [Graphics/ info graphics -- CAD/CAM industry ].




    ^^^ I thought this was wild / cool from Team Esprit - No they didn't just snort a line of coke before the interview: but gives an idea as to how long some development arcs can be...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    PowerMill tool paths are starting to show up in Fusion now. Steep and Shallow is one live example, but if you turn on development tools, you'll find a host of PowerMill paths are coming onboard.

    I really don't get the Fusion moaning on here. Looks like their strategy is to keep the basic version up and running for $500/year in perpetuity and if you can't afford that, the problem isn't Autodesk trying to kill you, your problem is that you need to go take some business classes. Looks like the more advanced machining stuff is going to be tacked on as a $120/month addition to that base subscription.

    IDK man... you turn a piece of software that was $30,000 into a piece of software that now costs you $1,950 a year, and people are still going to find a way to bitch, moan, and complain about that just not being good enough for their needs.
    I have no issues with fusion other than it requiring internet and updates. If they gave an option to buy it outright that is likely what I would do, no payments, no credit, no subscription, no changes! I don't do cutting edge work or need cutting edge equipment and software. My business sense works just fine, I owe no one anything, have more work than I can do and could shut down for a year if I wanted to and do just fine.

    I just realized that I have been using DNC software by OneCNC for quite some time and have been very happy with it. I will likely be looking further into their CAD CAM package

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    This is a core problem my own company has to contend with the current "App generation" mindset ... Price points are always tricky.

    I thought Fusion was able to work without having to be connected to the internet for long periods of time and it was not mandatory to store files in the cloud ?

    Most 3d graphics and CAD CAM and professional media graphics and rendering software Dooooo crash … [Anyone used to working with 3d studio Max, Softimage, Renderman , Maya etc. etc. if you didn't SAVE every ten to 15 minutes then you could lose work by that weird out of the blue freeze.]. It's not like Word you can leave open up for days if not weeks (other than crazy MS stealth updates).

    Yeah it can be real triple decker sh*t sandwich between operating systems and graphics hardware and drivers and "CAD CAM " software... I've had GOOD years where everything was stable and really bad years where you'd almost give up on a product combination. Overall things seem to be becoming more reliable [Graphics/ info graphics -- CAD/CAM industry ].




    ^^^ I thought this was wild / cool from Team Esprit - No they didn't just snort a line of coke before the interview: but gives an idea as to how long some development arcs can be...
    My internet is dogshit and Fusion gets all jacked up when it decides to take hours to update. It really only acts up while it is updating. They say that I can NOT turn off auto updates and I can't disconnect the computer from the internet just to do drawing and programing. I could likely get another computer and connect it to the internet every 2 weeks but honestly I don't think I should have to jump through hoops to get something to work. As I said in the previous post I'm going to be inquiring about OneCNC

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  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    I looked at it a few years ago, it was a subset of NX. I'm interested in it now again. I have SE and love it, hate my current CAM.
    I have always really liked Solid Edge even since the Intergraph days (before Siemens PLM bought them) - Really good design features and capability that are very efficient. I only really got into SolidWorks because of SolidCam that was the tipping point for me, but actually preferred SE over SW for CAD.

    Would be nice to take a second look at SE and first look at Solid Edge Cam 'Pro".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    My internet is dogshit and Fusion gets all jacked up when it decides to take hours to update. It really only acts up while it is updating. They say that I can NOT turn off auto updates and I can't disconnect the computer from the internet just to do drawing and programing. I could likely get another computer and connect it to the internet every 2 weeks but honestly I don't think I should have to jump through hoops to get something to work. As I said in the previous post I'm going to be inquiring about OneCNC
    Question: Have you asked Autodesk about this?

    A Fusion update should just download in the background without any fuss, no matter if you are on a direct fiber line to Mae West or on a set of tin cans with strings. If it isn't doing that, it is something for the development team to know and try to fix.

    One of the nice things about Fusion is that that development team is basically all on the forums, so if you go there and bring this up, you won't be dealing with some PR flack - the dude who runs the update infrastructure will probably read it and reply to you directly.

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    Fusion can get real funky while downloading an update. I learned the hard way a few times now to let it download and restart before doing ANYTHING!!! A few weeks ago I had a bunch of wonkiness going on with tool libraries and inserting elements of other files in new ones.

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    Ive been using HSMworks Solidworks plugin which comes free with Fusion. Doesnt do the auto update and no cloud storage so that is a plus. Payed 1500 for 3 years of fusion just for HSMworks. Includes 3d surfacing, 4th axis. Hard to swallow 12k for Mastercam to include 3d surfaces and not sure about 4th axis work.

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    They really need to fix that background updating, not downloading, but updating while it is running, it's just a complete disregard for the end user, they should download the update and prompt user before changing parts of the software that is running at that time

    Apple has a similar habit of doing supposedly non-critical stuff in the background without asking/telling the user anything, Windows at least has an option to limit that

    Whenever I notice that clock icon in Fusion, I let it do its thing, restart it, then continue whatever I was doing, it is a very annoying modern trend to constantly keep bombarding users with updates, like they are trying to impress you with how much they care for you...

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