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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    sorry, this is one of those things that i'll disagree with you on.
    MC is absolute trash for cad work. you cannot edit sketch dimensions after drawing anything, gotta start over. that alone stops me from doing any sketching in there.
    What? You most certainly can edit a 'sketch' (doesn't work the same as other cad).

    Analyze entity properties -
    sketch1.jpg

    Change x and/or y value -
    sketch2.jpg
    TADA! The line is now in a different place. Then if you have built a solid from that, you just regen the solid and done. You could also select your line/arc whatever and translate/rotate/xform/mirror, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    What? You most certainly can edit a 'sketch' (doesn't work the same as other cad).

    Analyze entity properties -
    sketch1.jpg

    Change x and/or y value -
    sketch2.jpg
    TADA! The line is now in a different place. Then if you have built a solid from that, you just regen the solid and done. You could also select your line/arc whatever and translate/rotate/xform/mirror, etc.
    i stand corrected, however, like anything else in mastercam, its a fucking pain in the ass to get to, no thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    (yeh I know that's Siemens NX inside)
    Hey now! Don’t go tarnishing NX’s good name like that!

    MasterCAM uses the Parasolid kernel, licensed from Siemens... but almost everything that isn’t Catia or Fusion uses the Parasolid kernel. MasterCAM doesn’t have NX “inside” any more than SolidWorks does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    i stand corrected, however, like anything else in mastercam, its a fucking pain in the ass to get to, no thanks!
    Well I am obviously not going to change your mind, but for anyone else reading..

    I don't see how it is a "fucking pain in the ass to get to"? A few ways to get to the example I showed.

    1) move the mouse over the analyze entity properties button, click it, then click your line/arc object you want to inspect or change (you can also change line weight/style, color and level from here)

    2) customize your right click mouse menu to include the analyze function(s)

    3) learn keyboard shortcuts (select object then F4 for analyze entity properties MCX6 anyways)

    None of them are "hard" or "difficult", it is the same as any other software, you have to learn how to use it, where the buttons are, and how to find them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Hey now! Don’t go tarnishing NX’s good name like that!

    MasterCAM uses the Parasolid kernel, licensed from Siemens... but almost everything that isn’t Catia or Fusion uses the Parasolid kernel. MasterCAM doesn’t have NX “inside” any more than SolidWorks does.
    Errrrrr....I'm not talking the kernel, I'm talking the model prep functions - no history tree etc.
    I was told that it was licenced from Siemens and is built into Mastercam very similar to how it is integrated into NX?
    Mastercam

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Well I am obviously not going to change your mind, but for anyone else reading..

    I don't see how it is a "fucking pain in the ass to get to"? A few ways to get to the example I showed.

    1) move the mouse over the analyze entity properties button, click it, then click your line/arc object you want to inspect or change (you can also change line weight/style, color and level from here)

    2) customize your right click mouse menu to include the analyze function(s)

    3) learn keyboard shortcuts (select object then F4 for analyze entity properties MCX6 anyways)

    None of them are "hard" or "difficult", it is the same as any other software, you have to learn how to use it, where the buttons are, and how to find them.

    That's pretty much exactly how I remember Smartcam. Then as now, some loved it, some hated it. If you have a print to duplicate in CAM, it's fine. To create a product from scratch, not so much. It does give you terrific direct control over the geometry.

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    I been using smartcam since the dos days.
    I use primarly advanced milling. I can do pretty much anything on it from molds to stupid parts 4th axis work etc etc even full 4th if your creative.
    it takes all but 5-10 mins to draw a part from a print complicated ones maybe 30 mins. Molds, surfacing 30 mins to an hour. and I dont need to use a mouse if i dont want to. just add the print dims in and pic the tools and generate the program and done.

    if you redraw the program you will have to regenerate the code Ie normal for any cad cam.
    if you want to change a tool path you have 100% control. meaning I can pick one of the lines add taper regen it and your done. YOU do NOT have to redraw the program. you cant do that in mastercam or any other program that I know of( I thought esprit you could at one time).
    you can make your own code generators and have 100% editing features on them. fairly simple to do anything you need them to due. most others you have to pay to get the company to make them.

    I dont do solids but smartcam can do them, they also have a host options in them for different types of cutting paths.
    and if you want you can make your own type of cutting pathes with macros faily simple also.
    the other thing is your NOT require to have a CLOUD or internet access to use it.

    If I got into 5 axis work I would more than likely need something else, full 4th I have been able to do with no problems but like I said I had to be creative.

    is it better than others No as there is always something better depending on what you need it for. it is however 100% controllable from drawing tool paths post/ code generators user made macros etc etc.

    I create parts from scratch all the time, Its just like using anything else, also I have made assemblies on it with no problems. smartcam is pretty much a full cad system and cam system combined in one and its pretty powerfull. I havent created solids on it but have created a ton of 3d surfaces on it. its no harder than using anything else.

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    Siemens gives away 2d SolidEdge, and is by far the best 2d CAD for the money...even if it wasn't free. SolidEdge 3D is a pay upgrade, so it depends on what you're doing as to what you have to spend.

    CAM-wise, the best cheap solution is Fusion360...by far.

    And as far as ITAR approved, all major industrial software companies are slowly going to a subscription-only model, so the ITAR thing will have to get figured out somehow...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Errrrrr....I'm not talking the kernel, I'm talking the model prep functions - no history tree etc.
    I was told that it was licenced from Siemens and is built into Mastercam very similar to how it is integrated into NX?
    Direct modeling is provided by the Parasolid kernel. Like every function of Parasolid, it up to the CAD engineers to figure out how to implement the functionality.

    The easy way to tell MasterCAM isn't using NX under the hood is that direct edits nuke the feature tree. NX treats every direct modeling action as a full-citizen feature in the tree - you can go back and edit it, you can drive it via equations or parameters from other geometry, you can drag it up and down the tree... it is a fully parametric feature the way an extruded sketch or hole series is. This makes it insanely powerful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Direct modeling is provided by the Parasolid kernel. Like every function of Parasolid, it up to the CAD engineers to figure out how to implement the functionality.

    The easy way to tell MasterCAM isn't using NX under the hood is that direct edits nuke the feature tree. NX treats every direct modeling action as a full-citizen feature in the tree - you can go back and edit it, you can drive it via equations or parameters from other geometry, you can drag it up and down the tree... it is a fully parametric feature the way an extruded sketch or hole series is. This makes it insanely powerful.
    Matercam pay (licence) the kernel AND the synchronous technology off Siemens, but CNC (mastercam) write their own custom user interface

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Siemens gives away 2d SolidEdge, and is by far the best 2d CAD for the money...even if it wasn't free. SolidEdge 3D is a pay upgrade, so it depends on what you're doing as to what you have to spend.
    Ah, so that's how it works. I knew I'd seen SolidEdge free somewhere, which made me wonder why junk like Autocad still exists in mechanical cad.

    What's the 'upgrade' cost ? Might still be a cheap way to get a top-grade cad program ?

    CAM-wise, the best cheap solution is Fusion360...by far.
    Disagree here. APT is far more capable than Fusion will ever be, it's already 5 axis and proven in such minor fields as aerospace, and it's free, public domain. No subscription, no online, no maintenance, totally parametric if you like or not if you don't, posts already built and tested for anything that counts, it is superb.

    The only thing is, you have to be skilled to use it. That's why I'm a Wildfire guy

    (Listening to youse guys bitch, I wonder where the "Pro/E is so hard to use" line comes from ? Sounds like it is easier to use than Mastercam. I certainly don't have to jump through those hoops to change a dimension ... just find it, click to highlight, type in the new number then hit enter. Viola, bob's your uncle.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Ah, so that's how it works. I knew I'd seen SolidEdge free somewhere, which made me wonder why junk like Autocad still exists in mechanical cad.

    What's the 'upgrade' cost ? Might still be a cheap way to get a top-grade cad program ?


    Disagree here. APT is far more capable than Fusion will ever be, it's already 5 axis and proven in such minor fields as aerospace, and it's free, public domain. No subscription, no online, no maintenance, totally parametric if you like or not if you don't, posts already built and tested for anything that counts, it is superb.

    The only thing is, you have to be skilled to use it. That's why I'm a Wildfire guy

    (Listening to youse guys bitch, I wonder where the "Pro/E is so hard to use" line comes from ? Sounds like it is easier to use than Mastercam. I certainly don't have to jump through those hoops to change a dimension ... just find it, click to highlight, type in the new number then hit enter. Viola, bob's your uncle.)
    What "hoops" do you speak of? It sounds exactly the same to me as your description >>>>


    I click the analyze entities button (find the dimension), click the object I want to change/examine (click to highlight), then change the numbers/levels/colors etc (type in new number)...


    Seems almost familiar, ya..? LoL

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Disagree here. APT is far more capable than Fusion will ever be, it's already 5 axis and proven in such minor fields as aerospace, and it's free, public domain. No subscription, no online, no maintenance, totally parametric if you like or not if you don't, posts already built and tested for anything that counts, it is superb.

    The only thing is, you have to be skilled to use it.
    APT is nothing like a modern CAM system, this comment is so unreasonable that I'm not sure if you're joking.

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    Solid Edge 2D is an awesome deal, it's the drafting module from full Solid Edge. The story is that UGS bought SE from Intergraph in order to get the drafting module to put into UG which is now called NX because it was the best on the market, And it's even better now. Detailing a drawing in SE is a breeze.

    SE drawing is the opposite of Mastercam/Smartcam drawing - In SE you put a line or arc down in space then dimension it to constrain the length and position, instead of keying in the endpoints, angle, length, etc. Great for "what if" and clean sheet of paper part creation, the other is great for following existing geometry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pariel View Post
    APT is nothing like a modern CAM system, this comment is so unreasonable that I'm not sure if you're joking.
    Are you an APT veteran ? It will do anything current graphical cam systems do. It's just different. Not joking. I don't have that kind of mind, I plod. But I've seen old APTers blast through complex parts faster than you can even open Mastercam, much less create a part program.

    Before I'd tie my cart to Autodesk, I'd take APT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I click the analyze entities button (find the dimension), click the object I want to change/examine (click to highlight), then change the numbers/levels/colors etc (type in new number)...

    Seems almost familiar, ya..? LoL
    Except for the extra steps and driving the cursor all over the screen, ya

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Are you an APT veteran ? It will do anything current graphical cam systems do. It's just different. Not joking. I don't have that kind of mind, I plod. But I've seen old APTers blast through complex parts faster than you can even open Mastercam, much less create a part program.

    Before I'd tie my cart to Autodesk, I'd take APT.
    I have no doubt it is physically capable of turning out good code. Teaching someone to use it and getting them to the same speed as someone using graphical CAM is where all this logic breaks down.

    The whole point of Fusion 360's CAM is that it's cheap, easy for someone with virtually no machining knowledge to pick up because of all the free support and training available, and it's similar enough to other modern CAM that moving along isn't hard once the value proposition is there.

    Not to mention there are tons of shops using Powermill, Inventor CAM, and HSMWorks to make a ton of money. How many are using APT in 2020? I certainly don't know any shops using it.

    APT may be your preference, but it's not advice that makes sense to provide to anyone else, whether they're starting a shop or training to work in someone else's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pariel View Post
    I have no doubt it is physically capable of turning out good code. Teaching someone to use it and getting them to the same speed as someone using graphical CAM is where all this logic breaks down.
    Have you tried, or are you just exercising your imagination ?

    The whole point of Fusion 360's CAM is that it's cheap, easy for someone with virtually no machining knowledge to pick up because of all the free support and training available, and it's similar enough to other modern CAM that moving along isn't hard once the value proposition is there.
    The "value proposition" ? Got your buzzwords down I see.

    About training the cleaning lady to write programs, yeah sure. Pay her $5 an hour, too. Then we can hire the kids from Miss Beeler's School for Retarded Children to run the machines at a buck an hour and we'll be rich ! Rich, I tell you ! All this crap about skills and knowledge, it's just a scam by those worthless dregs of society laborers to extort more money from us smart people ! Screw em I say ! It's just dumb work that a trained monkey could do !

    Not to mention there are tons of shops using Powermill, Inventor CAM, and HSMWorks to make a ton of money. How many are using APT in 2020? I certainly don't know any shops using it.
    Who the fuck cares ? Just because the neighbors have an Oldsmobile, you've got to have one too ?

    APT may be your preference, but it's not advice that makes sense to provide to anyone else, whether they're starting a shop or training to work in someone else's.
    Right. Just because it's different, we better not do it. Deming was "different" too.

    This is stupid sheep-thinking.

    Is APT suitable for most people ? I have no idea. I know that the lemming parade rushes to buy clicky-clicky but is that better ?

    If you are getting lots of solid models from other people to make, APT is a no. You can't just import them.

    If you are making swoopy surfaces, probably no. It's going to take a while to get to that level. But then learning NX is not something you accomplish in a week either.

    If you are doing lots of turning, APT is hands-down better, even today.

    If you do familes of parts or many similar parts, APT is better. I have a friend who makes wheel rims from solid and he loves it, even today. He's too small to waste $15,000 on something like Mastercam / Solidworks. For $300 he's been making good parts for twenty years and it takes him maybe ten or fifteen minutes per new design to program. Just the "maintenance" for something like Mastercam would have cost him over $50,000. I could buy lunch for that.

    I used it for myself, it was capable of everything I have ever done and the version I bought cost $300. I don't use it anymore because it's not groovy to show people and Wildfire cost me $5.

    It was also not good for the molds we were making from computer-built models because we'd have had to recreate all the features that already existed in the model. Even there it would have been better for turning the rim sections but for once I kept my mouth shut. In general, people are like you - they don't think.

    This is not even mentioning the fact that Autodesk is going to screw their Fusion customers. Not if, when. People are so stupid ... just like the beaten wife, they keep going back. "He's really reformed this time ! he promised he won't hit me again !"

    Sure. There's not one software company in the United States with ethics. Management of those companies is scum. They will fuck you when the time comes. Photobucket. Designwave (which I did in fact pay hard-earned cash money for).

    So, depending on the circumstance and on the part programmer's ability to use his brain for something more advanced than growing hair, yeah. APT is a possibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Have you tried, or are you just exercising your imagination ?


    The "value proposition" ? Got your buzzwords down I see.

    About training the cleaning lady to write programs, yeah sure. Pay her $5 an hour, too. Then we can hire the kids from Miss Beeler's School for Retarded Children to run the machines at a buck an hour and we'll be rich ! Rich, I tell you ! All this crap about skills and knowledge, it's just a scam by those worthless dregs of society laborers to extort more money from us smart people ! Screw em I say ! It's just dumb work that a trained monkey could do !


    Who the fuck cares ? Just because the neighbors have an Oldsmobile, you've got to have one too ?


    Right. Just because it's different, we better not do it. Deming was "different" too.

    This is stupid sheep-thinking.

    Is APT suitable for most people ? I have no idea. I know that the lemming parade rushes to buy clicky-clicky but is that better ?

    If you are getting lots of solid models from other people to make, APT is a no. You can't just import them.

    If you are making swoopy surfaces, probably no. It's going to take a while to get to that level. But then learning NX is not something you accomplish in a week either.

    If you are doing lots of turning, APT is hands-down better, even today.

    If you do familes of parts or many similar parts, APT is better. I have a friend who makes wheel rims from solid and he loves it, even today. He's too small to waste $15,000 on something like Mastercam / Solidworks. For $300 he's been making good parts for twenty years and it takes him maybe ten or fifteen minutes per new design to program. Just the "maintenance" for something like Mastercam would have cost him over $50,000. I could buy lunch for that.

    I used it for myself, it was capable of everything I have ever done and the version I bought cost $300. I don't use it anymore because it's not groovy to show people and Wildfire cost me $5.

    It was also not good for the molds we were making from computer-built models because we'd have had to recreate all the features that already existed in the model. Even there it would have been better for turning the rim sections but for once I kept my mouth shut. In general, people are like you - they don't think.

    This is not even mentioning the fact that Autodesk is going to screw their Fusion customers. Not if, when. People are so stupid ... just like the beaten wife, they keep going back. "He's really reformed this time ! he promised he won't hit me again !"

    Sure. There's not one software company in the United States with ethics. Management of those companies is scum. They will fuck you when the time comes. Photobucket. Designwave (which I did in fact pay hard-earned cash money for).

    So, depending on the circumstance and on the part programmer's ability to use his brain for something more advanced than growing hair, yeah. APT is a possibility.
    you sound angry... :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    you sound angry... :P
    Didn't meant to

    But that kind of thinking - "No one uses that now so it can't be any good" is so .... retarded ? Like rushing off to buy a five axis machine for a job you could easily do on a Bridgeport. It's as if we replaced thinking with sheepwalking.

    Yes, APT is certainly not for everyone. But to dismiss it a a possibility because "no one uses that anymore" is annoying. We should be smarter than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Are you an APT veteran ? It will do anything current graphical cam systems do. It's just different. Not joking. I don't have that kind of mind, I plod. But I've seen old APTers blast through complex parts faster than you can even open Mastercam, much less create a part program.

    Before I'd tie my cart to Autodesk, I'd take APT.


    Except for the extra steps and driving the cursor all over the screen, ya
    Extra steps? It is the exact same number as the other guy saying - find the dimension, highlight it, blahblah...

    And if you read my post #24, I said there are 3 (that I know of) ways to access the analyze (or most other functions) entity, right click menu you can customize, an Fkey, and the icon/button for it... so you don't have to "drive the cursor all over the screen"


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