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  1. #41
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    Apr 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Extra steps? It is the exact same number as the other guy saying - find the dimension, highlight it, blahblah...
    From your example, it looks like you find a feature with the cursor, click it, get a popup screen with several boxes, move the cursor to the box you need, type in the number.

    In WF, all the dimensions are showing, you drive the cursor to the dimension, click on it, change right there. Seems like fewer steps to me but written explanations are not always clear ... Actually, Wildfire gives you several different ways to change dimensions also, but that's usually the quickest.

    You can also do it the way you describe, choose a feature, then across the bottom a series of attributes shows up - x, y, z, that type of thing - and you can change there, the same way it looks as if Mastercam does it.

    But I usually use the direct method.

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  3. #42
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    Jan 2016
    New Jersey
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Yes, APT is certainly not for everyone. But to dismiss it a a possibility because "no one uses that anymore" is annoying. We should be smarter than that.
    That wasn't why I dismissed it and pretending it's the reason is disingenuous.

    The "value proposition" ? Got your buzzwords down I see.

    About training the cleaning lady to write programs, yeah sure. Pay her $5 an hour, too. Then we can hire the kids from Miss Beeler's School for Retarded Children to run the machines at a buck an hour and we'll be rich ! Rich, I tell you ! All this crap about skills and knowledge, it's just a scam by those worthless dregs of society laborers to extort more money from us smart people ! Screw em I say ! It's just dumb work that a trained monkey could do !
    Pretending that training costs are not significant is stupid. Optimization of resources (a.k.a. training for the right skills) is important. What happens when your APT trained

    Who the fuck cares ? Just because the neighbors have an Oldsmobile, you've got to have one too ?

    Right. Just because it's different, we better not do it. Deming was "different" too.

    This is stupid sheep-thinking.
    I will spell it out since you don't appear to be willing to engage basic comprehension skills: Autodesk is not Fusion. Autodesk sells a ton of products that hundreds of thousands of people use to make money. You can swear off Autodesk products all you want, but that doesn't mean that it's good advice.

    Deming wasn't suggesting software that's been out of common usage for 30 years was the bees knees. You've got a way to go before you compare yourself to Deming.

    Is APT suitable for most people ? I have no idea. I know that the lemming parade rushes to buy clicky-clicky but is that better ?

    If you are getting lots of solid models from other people to make, APT is a no. You can't just import them.
    The fact is that this is literally the standard for modern manufacturing.

    If you are making swoopy surfaces, probably no. It's going to take a while to get to that level. But then learning NX is not something you accomplish in a week either.

    If you are doing lots of turning, APT is hands-down better, even today.
    If you're making simple turned parts you likely have a control that will allow your to make them just as fast at the machine, or can finger bang out the G code. You don't need any software at all except maybe Notepad++. APT might make you slightly faster, but honestly the limited amount of programming time that's required for parts that simple means there ain't much money to be saved in the first place.

    That said, in 2020 I would expect all those parts to be modeled and sitting in a database, even if it's the customers, and the ability to update them automatically with a real CAM software is worth actual money in multiple ways.

    This is basic cost-benefit analysis, it's not rocket science.

    If you do familes of parts or many similar parts, APT is better. I have a friend who makes wheel rims from solid and he loves it, even today. He's too small to waste $15,000 on something like Mastercam / Solidworks. For $300 he's been making good parts for twenty years and it takes him maybe ten or fifteen minutes per new design to program. Just the "maintenance" for something like Mastercam would have cost him over $50,000. I could buy lunch for that.
    Or with Fusion it could be an hour spent programming the model once, and then regenerating it for the minor changes at the cost of a minute or two each time. And maybe it never makes sense for him to go to Mastercam, or maybe he organizes the rest of his business like it's 2020 and finds some growth and in a year or two the cost of a Mastercam license is dwarfed by all the other CapEx that a business that really makes money involves.

    If your friend wants to run his business like he did 20 years ago that's fine, but don't be surprised when someone comes along and eats his lunch (although it sounds like he never got big enough to have a lunch for someone else to eat, if a one time $15k expenditure is a lot).

    I used it for myself, it was capable of everything I have ever done and the version I bought cost $300. I don't use it anymore because it's not groovy to show people and Wildfire cost me $5.

    It was also not good for the molds we were making from computer-built models because we'd have had to recreate all the features that already existed in the model. Even there it would have been better for turning the rim sections but for once I kept my mouth shut. In general, people are like you - they don't think.
    In general, people choose the tool that is the best use for all the work they're going to have to do. If that's "not thinking" I'm gonna keep on not thinking. I have other things to think about, like the actual design and manufacturing work I do. Thinking about all the software options out there is a limited thing I do every few years to see if there's something that makes more financial sense.

    This is not even mentioning the fact that Autodesk is going to screw their Fusion customers. Not if, when. People are so stupid ... just like the beaten wife, they keep going back. "He's really reformed this time ! he promised he won't hit me again !"

    Sure. There's not one software company in the United States with ethics. Management of those companies is scum. They will fuck you when the time comes. Photobucket. Designwave (which I did in fact pay hard-earned cash money for).
    You're complaining that you got screwed by Photobucket?

    You do what makes the most sense financially and when change happens you find the next best option. If the cost of software is the biggest thing a business has to worry about, it's problems are extremely small. Most people on PM pissing and moaning about software costs or product changes have never spent a dime out of their own pocket for industrial software, and the reality is that the effects of any of those decisions on their actual checkbook are small or non-existent. For 90%+ of people on this forum, Fusion is not a good option and should never be suggested -- because they are in more mature businesses who should be buying a more powerful piece of software whether it's from Autodesk or someone else.

    So, depending on the circumstance and on the part programmer's ability to use his brain for something more advanced than growing hair, yeah. APT is a possibility.
    By your own admission, APT is only useful in a small fraction of cases. I think reading your argument for APT might be the best way to convince people that using it is not the right answer for them.

    But sure, just keep insulting my and everyone else's intelligence. Should we compare income and net worth next? What would make you feel good about this whole thing?

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