Video Card & CAD/CAM Software

Here's something to consider when weighing cad/cam software. Unlike most software a CAD application can slow the video performance of your PC to a crawl.

When I first purchased OneCNC and attempted to render some 3D parts or simply tried to spin and rotate the part around in 3D my computer which was no slouch (Pentium 4 2.26ghz and a $200 video card) slowed to a crawl.

Some CAD software requires high end (i.e. very expensive) CAD specific video cards. Onecnc being a native Windows XP program can make use of high end 3D game cards which while not cheap, are less than the $2k plus you can spend on a CAD video card. So I trotted off down to the Bestbuy and plunked down $400 for the fastest 3D video game card available at the time (GeForce 6800 GT) and presto rendering improved by some magnitude, minutes to seconds and spining and rotating parts was smooth as silk.

Charles

Yes, Rhino is like that too. A decent gaming card will do the job. Although on huge files (600Mb) a CAD specific video card will show it's stuff.

Dan

Check ebay for quadro fx video cards. I recently purchased a Quadro fx540 new pull for $75. Quite an improvement over the 6200 turbocache it replaced.

There is so much more than rendering, though. Dynamic shading, anti-aliasing, large models and assembly, refresh rates, etc.

These days, a "good" card for rendering CAD/CAM applications is nothing less than a Quadro FX1400, and preferrably the Quadro FX3000. (industry standard for intensive graphics applications) And, they're getting much cheaper, because they use the AGP8x slot, which is a dying breed. The REALLY good cards these days are PCI-express cards, which draw some pretty steep prices.

You can't believe what your graphics card will do for performance, until you've actually seen the difference in a side-by-side comparison.

On another note, most vendors certify hardware for their applications, to eliminate some of the variables. (in short, they refuse you service if you don't use "authorized" configurations) You should ALWAYS check with your software company to determine "certified" hardware, AND "certified" drivers. The latest drive is NOT always the best!

I have found that the NVidia 7300GT is great for CAD and rendering. It can handle a lot of punishment.

I render 250 to 500 still frame images from mesh models at 600dpi. Running on a Athlon 64 X2 3800+. It normally takes it about half an hour to an hour to complete all of the renderings(I do this for fun, so I don't use a render farm). I am still able to run multiple Graphic intensive apps in the background without sacrificing performance.

One of the things you may want to look into as well is what you have running in the background after you boot the computer. For me 25 to 35 applications/sevices are acceptable within the task manager while I have nothing running in the foreground. Most computers these days ship from the OEM with 45+ applications/services running in the background. I normally go in and kill all I can with msconfig which greatly reduces the amount of free memory on the system.

I meant increases free memory, sorry!

I have found that the NVidia 7300GT is great for CAD and rendering. It can handle a lot of punishment.

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It would certainly depend on your CAD, and what your definition of "great" is - because in reality, that's a terrible card for CAD/CAM, and only an "OK" gaming card. (yes, it's actually a gaming card)

But, of course, the wrong tool will often do the job. Just not as well as the right one.

You spoke about freeing up system memory - the "good" cards these days are shipped with onboard memory, and even multiple GPU's, in some cases.

Not to be critical of your setup - but if you had the right card for your application, and compared it side by side with the right card, you'd see right away what I'm talking about.

In the days of electronics unloading on eBay, there's really no excuse not to put a good CAD flavored video graphics adaptor in. (instead of a gamer) The quadro FX3000 can be had for under $300 - and if that sounds like a lot of money, try quantifying the time over a year for lag, or crashes due to inadequate video resources. (it happens more than you might think)

More RAM helps too.

failsafe7 - In correction to my earlier post the card I refer to is a 7300GS not GT as previously posted. Yes it is a 'Gamer Card', but does ship with an onboard GPU, supports SLI, dual monitors and is a 512MB card and still costs under $100.

Just another option. If a 'gamer card' can get the job done why not. Afterall gamers have been pushing hardware to its' potential and beyond for years.

And if all else fails, Overclock it and keep a fire extinguisher handy.

Afterall gamers have been pushing hardware to its' potential and beyond for years.

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True, but not in the same ways as us CAD/CAM guys. CAD geometry is by far more resource intensive than gaming.

dual monitors and is a 512MB card and still costs under $100.

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1) analog or DVI - but not simultaneous "dual" monitors
2) not a 512MB card - at least not according to NVIDIA (only 64-bit memory interface)
3) $99 is not under $100 when you tack on tax

This might be an "OK" card for running AutoCAD or something of the like - but not for "serious" jobs.

I went down this road about 2 years ago. I kept experiencing problems with running out of memory, and crashes during large file loading, and with certain "intensive" operations. I never believed it when I was told that I needed a new graphics card. But sure enough, when it went in, WOW what a difference.

Subsequently, I've held a very entrenched position ever since on graphics cards, and have had the chance to see even more protracted and detailed comparisons since.

I'm back in the stone age with PCI slots,
but I picked up a PCI (not pci express)
Geforce5200 256DDR from tiger direct for $49.
Dual VGA out.....

dan k

More RAM helps too.

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More RAM doesn't help if the limiting factor of your system is the graphics card.

Here is the order of importance of components in a CAD system:

1) CPU
2) Memory
3) Graphics

However - it doesn't help to put a memory in your machine if your graphics card is a turd. Similarly, Putting a new graphics adaptor or memory is not the answer if the CPU is outdated.

Typically, people tend to build systems around clock speed (CPU) and memory (RAM) without giving due dilligence to graphics. This can be a fatal mistake. The best processor and all the RAM in the world will not compensate for the shortcomings of a crappy video card.

I can't say it enough.

You can say it as much as you like, I'm still only going to partially agree with it. Certainly a good "pro" graphics card will do wonders in many situations, and if you have the resources, the money is usually well spent.

For example, I run Magics on three computers, and only the one that is equipped with a Quadro will actually work with OpenGL display mode. The other two have various Nvidia consumer level cards, and if you turn off the OGL display, Magics itself runs fine.

However, CAD different programs have different ways of working with video cards, and not all of them really need a Quadro. Rhino, for example, runs fine on most Nvidia consumer cards - I have a very old 4200, a 5600 Go in my laptop, and a 7300 (in addition to the Quadro). They all run Rhino fine without any display issues. Of course, the oldest ones slow down a lot if you tumble a heavy model in shaded mode, but they don't crash.

Some programs will also give you the choice of running the display in "lighter" mode so as not to strain a less powerful video card.

But if you are doing things like toolpath calculations, geometry creation, rendering, etc., it's all processor and RAM, the video card doesn't do anything in these cases...

The video card enters into the equation when you start to do something dynamic with the display, as in rotate, pan or zoom. The heavier your model is, the more sophisticated your screen display is, the more physical pixels you have to process (as in screen size and multiple monitors)- these factors will have a great influence on how your display is going to act.

The Quadros are the basically same hardware as the gamers AFAIK, it's mainly the drivers that change. The quadro drivers are specifically optimized for CAD. It used to be relatively easy to turn your GeForce into a quadro, but enough people did that that Nvidia took action, and now I think it's pretty difficult if not impossible. This, combined with the fact that the prices for entry-level quadros have come down a great deal in the last couple of years, have made it much less interesting to try to do this anyway. --ch

Rhino, for example, runs fine on most Nvidia consumer cards

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I did make the caveat that it depends on which CAD, and what you are doing.

Some programs will also give you the choice of running the display in "lighter" mode so as not to strain a less powerful video card.

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Agreed. But it is not always beneficial to do so.

The video card enters into the equation when you start to do something dynamic with the display, as in rotate, pan or zoom.

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Or load assemblies, with multiple instances of the same part. Or run a simulation or analysis. There are plenty more things that enter into the equation.

The Quadros are the basically same hardware as the gamers AFAIK, it's mainly the drivers that change.

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I don't think that this is accurate. I have side by side comparisons of several graphics adaptors, and while the differences my be subtle, sometimes the devil is in the details. Nothing that I have seen leads me to believe that it's software differences driving the difference in models. If it were, why wouldn't anyone have the business sense to sell a generic card, and license the software? The REAL money is NOT made on either the high or low end cards - the profit margins are all in the mid-range products. I'd rather make fewer models that could be "unlocked" with the right software, and reduce production costs. If I'm smart enough to think of that, surely an executive would be light years ahead of me...

The quadro drivers are specifically optimized for CAD.

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Not true. They are much more specifically optimized towards 3D animation and graphics programs, like Studio Max, Maya, etc. CAD just happens to share in the bounty.

I'm not going to twist your arm to buy one - but there is a major difference between a "CAD" card, and a "gamer" card. Having had both, I'm well aware of the difference. Again, however, it all boils down to what you expect your application to do, and in what manner of efficiency.

The converse side of this, is that you don't buy CAD cards if you're a professional gamer. Just so you don't think that I'm making a one-sided argument. The knife slices both ways, and you probably won't know it, unless you've been cast in both roles.

I don't think that this is accurate. I have side by side comparisons of several graphics adaptors, and while the differences my be subtle, sometimes the devil is in the details. Nothing that I have seen leads me to believe that it's software differences driving the difference in models. If it were, why wouldn't anyone have the business sense to sell a generic card, and license the software? The REAL money is NOT made on either the high or low end cards - the profit margins are all in the mid-range products. I'd rather make fewer models that could be "unlocked" with the right software, and reduce production costs. If I'm smart enough to think of that, surely an executive would be light years ahead of me...

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Well, this is old info, but to show you it was the case in the past, have a look here:

http://www.guru3d.com/index.php?page=rivatuner&menu=8

--ch

From Nvidia's website:

NVIDIA Quadro products are fully certified for all professional workstation applications, and are ideal for the CAD (computer-aided design), CAE (computer-aided engineering), DCC (digital content creation), visualization, and corporate markets.

If you look further, you see MCAD is at the top of several lists of applications areas.

Basically, as far as I know, quadros have much better support for OpenGL, so in general any OpenGL enabled app will benefit from one. --ch

Well, this is old info, but to show you it was the case in the past, have a look here:

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I haven't read it in depth - but from what I see so far, it just looks like enhanced drivers, and overclocking methods. I'm not sure about the converting of GeForce to Quadro FX. In any case, it's pretty sophisticated, and many people are better off buying the new adaptor than trying to perform these actions

NVIDIA Quadro products are fully certified for all professional workstation applications, and are ideal for the CAD (computer-aided design), CAE (computer-aided engineering), DCC (digital content creation), visualization, and corporate markets.

If you look further, you see MCAD is at the top of several lists of applications areas.

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I don't dispute that - but just saying that companies like NVIDIA were big in DCC before they were in CAD. There was a time when 3D graphics was more sophisticated than CAD rendering and display. So the technology wasn't specifically developed for CAD - and most of it is certainly not unique to CAD, but is a by-product or evolution from other applications.


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True, but not in the same ways as us CAD/CAM guys. CAD geometry is by far more resource intensive than gaming.

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True, in the number of triangles, but not in the number of triangles per second.

1) analog or DVI - but not simultaneous "dual" monitors
2) not a 512MB card - at least not according to NVIDIA (only 64-bit memory interface)

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Not True. I run one monitor through DVI and the other through VGA. Both on the same card. My computer does have onboard graphics, but I do not utilize that VGA connector. This card is also a PCI-E16x, not AGP.

I DO understand the differences between CAD cards and Gamer cards.

AGP is a 'dying breed' with the advent of PCI-E and SLI the differences between gamer cards and CAD specific cards is going to decrease. Gamers, like the CAD guys, want the most bang for their buck. I think you would be hard pressed to see a difference between your high-end CAD card ($2k and up) and Quad GPUs running in SLI.

I may be wrong, so if you can find the benchmarks to prove it let me know.

Well I don't know about all this technical stuff on video cards. If I were spending 8 to 12 hours a day on CAD work, I certainly would like to get a side by side comparison of a high end CAD card vs a much less expensive Gamer card. The extra 2k might be worthwhile in such an environment.

One thing I do know for sure is that the Gamers have have given us folks that use many different types of graphic programs (including CAD) a reasonably priced video card that performs well. It is a simple case where the specialities have benefited form the masses rather than the other way around.

The extra 2k might be worthwhile in such an environment.

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Don't be fooled. Nobody ever buys these cards at their sky-high retail prices. Most of these end up on the market as working pulls, or through some wholesale outlet. (or eBay)

Aside from that, there really aren't a lot of $2K cards, and the ones that are, really are worth it. (Quadro FX5500 comes to mind)