Visual Mill/RhinoCam question

First, are these two products essentially the same? I have demos for both, and I find that RhinoCam seems to be missing some toolpath editing features. For example, in VM I can window around toolpath and trim it away, just like WorkNC. In RhinoCam I see the buttons to delete path, but none to select toolpath. Are they hidden somewhere?

On the subject of trimming toolpaths, is there no provision to recalculate retracts after trimming? I found if I trimmed away a small area, there was some serious gouging where the new connecting paths really should have been retracts. How do you do this?

Also, I can't seem to find anything about holder collision checking. Does VM/RhinoCam have this feature? If so, they need to add the ability to better define holders. The rectangular holder that is part of the tool selection does not come even close to something like a heat shrink holder, that is narrow and tapered. I suppose if the holder is irrelevant, then it doesn't really matter. Not doing any type of holder collision check would be my main reason for not considering VM/RhinoCAm as a serious professional-grade CAM aplication.

Thanks,

Dan

Okay, good, I see that it does highlight in red where the holder violates the surfaces. Any chance that somewhere it recommends an appropriate tool length?

(I would post these questions on Mecsoft's forum but I'm still awaiting the password. Probably won't see that until Monday.)

The more I play with this demo, the more impressed I become. There are a lot of features in this software!

Dan

Dan, I'd try to answer your questions but "I am just an egg" with the software and have plenty of questions of my own. (BTW, I have Rhino 3.0 and VM 5.0 (full), not RhinoCAM, though I may purchase the dongle mod software that will let me run VM inside of Rhino a la RhinoCAM).

The only thing I've stumbled up against in tool definitions is that flute length needs to be shorter than tool length, even if it isn't. I had an endmill that had flutes that went past the end of the holder, and it wouldn't take FL=TL.

I suppose that if you have some tapered tool holder that what you could do is start with the tool holder diameter defined at the small OD, and if you don't see any collisions bump it up towards the mid-level OD to see if suddenly you have problems. Or start at the max OD likely to be seen and work your way down.

As far as I can see right now 5.0 allows a single holder diameter X holder length for clash dectection. But perhaps a tapered holder could be incorporated if you mention it to them in the enhancements requests forum. It seems like that could be major and minor diameters, with the default setting being for them to be equal, but allowing for the user to specify differing numbers (possibly with a check box to indicate it is a deliberate mismatch).

Are you looking at RhinoCAM or RhinoCAM Pro? The standard version uses VM basic, while the Pro looks to be the full version of VM.

http://www.mecsoft.com/Mec/Products/products.shtml

will give you some idea of the different features in the full version that aren't included in Basic.

The support team at Mecsoft seems to check the forum several times a day, so you can't expect to always get an answer in a very short time. But they do seem responsive.

cheers,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I select the "Pro" option when the demo loads.

I found that the RhinoCam demo crashes a lot, but the VM demo has been rock solid.

As far as holders go, I think the best solution would be if Mecsoft incorporated a holder library that contained user constructed holders. That way it would be quick to just insert the appropriate holder and not have to worry about the dimensions. Perhaps this is already possible? In WorkNC we have a tool library that contains not only the cutter specifics with regard to size, but also speeds, feeds, step-overs, holder etc. Is this what the knowledge base feature in VM is all about?

I would have to say that so far I don't think Visual Mill 5 is at the level we are used to with WorkNC, but it has caught my attention and I am interested to see what has been added for version 6. There will be simultaneous 5-axis from what I have been told, so I will definitely download a demo of that later this summer.

What I do like about VM is that it is a CAM program, not a CAD/CAM program. With Rhino, I have the CAD end of it covered, and I don't want/need a software with features I will never use. WorkNC has WorkNC-Cad, and we never use it. In my opinion, WorkNC should have remained a stand-alone CAM package and not ventured into the world of CAD. Had all that maintenance money gone into CAM only over the last few years, I wouldn't be here now looking at other options for 5-axis. WorkNC at one time a few years ago, was pretty close to the best you could buy for CAM. Now it's been relegated to middle of the pack.

In the meantime, I will post some enhancement suggestions on their forum. If they are as receptive as I have heard they are, maybe I can help, in some small way, to drive future releases in the direction that will close the gap between VM and WorkNC.



Dan

The tool library is a .csv file that the user can edit. You can edit the file (either in Notepad or Excel) or via the GUI. Here's a sample:

Version: 5.000000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
ToolType,Name,Type,Holder Diameter,Holder Length,Shank Diameter,Diameter,Corner Radius,Thread Pitch,Taper Angle,Tip Angle,Tip Length,Tip Diameter,Flute Length,Total Length,Tool #,Adjust Reg,CutCom Reg,Z Offset,Direction,# of Flutes,Material,Inserts,Insert Width,Coolant,Comments
MILL,.375 4FL ( 2.550 Loc ),FLAT,1.5,1,0,0.375,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.55,4.23,0,0,0,0,CW,4,Carbide,NO,0,NONE,

It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to add a couple more fields to allow the holder to be defined in greater detail, but then it always looks that way when you aren't the one having to do the coding.

They supply a couple of pre-stocked inch and metric tool libraries, but I've gone through and purged some stuff that I didn't think applied and started adding my own tools in. That is named to a different file so I've still got the OEM file to fall back on if I screw things up too badly.

I haven't gotten to the point of investigating the knowledgebase feature. I'm still trying to figure out when I want to use one type of operation instead of another that seems to do a similar job.

VM seemed like good value for the money when compared to the competition. But as a newbie I had to make my decision based on personal recommendations and feature lists so I can't speak with any kind of authority on how good it actually is.

But then, it only has to be "good enough" for my purposes, and I'll be satisfied.

There are people who post on the support forum from various countries who use VM in mold making, and one of the people who recommended it to me told me about using Rhino and VM to machine replicas (for display in museums) of dinosaur bones, which seemed like a fairly complicated task.

But my experience over the years with software is that you can pick any program, no matter how bad, and you'll find someone who has developed some amazing ability with it in spite of all the odds against them.

Sort of like using edlin to write a novel.

That just makes it even harder to evaluate software, as you don't know if it is really easy to use and powerful, or if you've just run up against that one in a million idiot-savant user who is telling you how the program is the bee's knees.

cheers,
Michael

Hi Dan,

I don't edit the toolpaths so I can't help you there. To get to the tool path editor in RhinoCam you go to the Mops area open the operation folder for the Toolpath you want to edit. The very last icon at the bottom is toolpath. Doubleclick on the icon and all the tools you saw in VM will be there. The array tool in rhinocam (which is there also) is better because once enter values it remembers them for the next op without having to enter them every time like you do in VM. I seem to crash RhinoCam a lot with trying to open old VM files and importing the knowledgebase. Ran some parts to day that I had to program and it occured to me that while this program is much simpler than mastercam or Surfcam that is what allows you to be quick with it. Have you tried the "between two curves" 3d function yet? It is the one thing I am most delighted with in this cam package. The cutter path is very nice looking as it follows the shape of your model.

Ted

...or if you've just run up against that one in a million idiot-savant user who is telling you how the program is the bee's knees.

Click to expand...

Or that one unhappy user that gives it a bad rap.....

Hi Ted,

Doubleclick on the icon and all the tools you saw in VM will be there.

Click to expand...

Actually, they are not. VM has more tools. When I try to edit toolpaths in RhinoCam, I get an error message because I haven't selected any of the toolpaths in the graphics window. There is no tool there to do that. In VM there is.

Dan

Are you talking a bug or missing tools? To the best of my recollection all the tools I had in VM as far as toolpath editing are in rhinocam also. I am running RhinoCam Pro. I had never exercised all the tools in Vm so I can't comment on comparative functionality. The Array tool was one I used much and it is better in RhinoCam. What I do find missing that I liked is in the VM drawing I could change the start of a curve by dragging the start/end point of the curve to any where I wanted to. I have not yet found this feature in RhinoCam if it exists.

Ted

Hi Ted,

Try Rhino's CrvSeam command. It will allow you to change the start point and direction of a closed curve.

I'm going to keep looking for those missing commands. I'm gonna guess that they have been replaced with native Rhino commands, but so far I haven't been able to make it work.

I will post on Mecsoft's forum as soon as I get my password.

Dan

Thanks Dan. Try the bonus Icon up in the Rhino Toolbar. Some of those features seemed to be VM oriented. curve--duplicate border seems to be one of the old VM commands.

Ted

Thanks Ted, I'll take a look.

Can you re-order the Mops in the browser?

Dan

Yes, but you have to cut and paste not drag and drop like VM.

Ted

Turns out that you cannot edit tool paths in RhinoCam with the same ease as in VM. The ability to trim path with a window is not there. I got this info directly from Mecsoft.

Dan

Any plans to improve this? I never used it but I hate giving up functions......

Any plans to improve this?

Click to expand...

I don't know. I didn't pursue it with the fella from Mecsoft. I have joined the Mecsoft forum, so I may ask over there. (Unless you beat me to it)

Dan

I downloaded RhinoCAM and have spent some time evaluating it. I would like some feedback on my observations:

RhinoCAM Product Version: 1,10,0,0 is crashing on a frequent basis. Anything from working with the toolpath editor to loading a tool library seems to cause it to crash. Very frustrating. Sometimes RhinoCAM locks up Windows XP Pro so badly I have to do a restart. I'm using Rhino Version 3.0 SR4 18-Jul-2005 Evaluation.

Any idea when a newer version that hopefully will be more stable will be available to download ?

The tool tips frequently disappear in RhinoCAM in the Mops Browser.

I would like to be able to drag and drop in the Mops Browser rather than just cut and paste. Drag and Drop makes reordering easier for me.

I would like to be able to look at and edit a Spreadsheet filled with all the Mops parameters.

I would like to be able to edit the Tool Info Spreadsheet.

In the RhinoCAM On-Line Help it says:

"Selecting Regions In Machining Operations: Regions must be selected before they can be used in an Operation. To select Regions, you can use the standard Rhino selection methods to select Curves. An Optional way would be to click on the Select Regions Button in the toolbar corresponding to the Mops tab. This brings up the Selected Regions Dialog and allows you to use single selection to select curves."

I try this and Rhino still prompts me asking if I want a curve, surface, etc. What am I doing wrong ?

I notice that when I have the Regions Dialog Box open when I am picking holes that I wish to apply Drilling Operations to I often have to pick twice in order to get the Curve that shows up as selected in Rhino to actually show up in the Regions Dialog Box.

When simulating an operation using the Tool Path Editor show path does not seem to have any connection to the solid stock. All the tool seems to be able to do is follow the wireframe cutter path. I would like to move line by line in the Tool Path Editor and cut the solid stock as well as follow the cutter path.

When simulating cutting a solid I would like to be able to step back not just step forward.

Hole Sorting: Does not seem to work very well. I think much more powerful hole sorting is really needed.

I would like to see a more detailed examples / tutorials for 3 axis simultanious milling. I don't do very much 3 axis surfacing and more detailed example / tutorial then the dumbell.3dm one would help me better understand how to better apply / use the toolpaths available in RhinoCAM.

Does anyone use the Plunge Roughing cycle ? If so when do you use it ?

MecSoft Company history: Shouldn't there be a link on the MecSoft Website explaining how MecSoft came to be and what the owner did before MecSoft ?

For those that own RhinoCAM or Visual Mill I would like to know if you purchased it direct or through a VAR.

Jon Banquer
Phoenix, Arizana

Hi Jon,

I found that it crashed constantly too. That was with the commercial release of Rhino (Rhino3sr4).

I gave up on it once i found out that you cannot trim paths the way you can in Visual Mill. I'm still playing around with the VM5 demo. It never crashes on me.

For your other questions, maybe you should post them on Mecsoft's forum? Perhaps quite a few of your points belong on the enhancement page.

Dan

The new batch of tutorials was mentioned in this thread

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000062;p=0&r=nfx&s=noprofile

cheers,
Michael

Dan,

Okay. I will download Visual Mill 5 and work through those tutorials. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you in the other thread. I will make the time and respond in the next few days.

Jon Banquer
Phoenix, Arizona