Weird phone callfrom Delcam and Autodesk
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    Default Weird phone callfrom Delcam and Autodesk

    Hello.
    Not to flog a dead horse but I felt I should share. I got a call from Colorado today (I'm in LA) from a lady trying to sell Delcam subscriptions. She told me they are running a special and wanted to see if I was interested. Apparently a Delcam subscription can be had for less than I pay for maintenance in Esprit. Her rough estimate was 5k compared to 1.6K for esprit. So in Autodesk math 5 is less than 1.6. I asked her why she thought a subscription was a good idea and she compared this line of thinking to getting a new I phone each year because the "old iphone" does not work as well when it gets old. So apparently each new year Autodesk is going to update Delcam with totally new before unseen features.

    What is wrong with these people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by plutoniumsalmon View Post
    I got a call from Colorado today

    What is wrong with these people?
    Pot is legal in Colorado.....

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    Fuck Autodesk! (I just paid my maintenance )
    I am soo tired of them trying to push the subscription model! (but, as was mentioned: the horse is way dead)

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Pot is legal in Colorado.....
    It wasn't the pot that turned them stupid.

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    [QUOTE=plutoniumsalmon;3091285]Hello.
    Her rough estimate was 5k compared to 1.6K for esprit. So in Autodesk math 5 is less than 1.6. QUOTE]

    So did you buy it?

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    [QUOTE=Joe Miranda;3091496]
    Quote Originally Posted by plutoniumsalmon View Post
    Hello.
    Her rough estimate was 5k compared to 1.6K for esprit. So in Autodesk math 5 is less than 1.6. QUOTE]

    So did you buy it?
    Got 7 seats for each day of the week. Paid in Chuck E Cheese tokens with "bitcoin" sharpied onto them

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    Help me understand ( as a CAD CAM vendor ) which licensing is most wanted.

    1- Upgrade model

    You buy the a software version and pay for the next version if you want it.

    2- Maintenance model

    You buy the software and pay a yearly fee to get the next version when available

    3- Subscription model

    You buy the software and pay a yearly fee to get the next version when available


    The upgrade model causes issues for new customers that purchase just before the next version is released.
    At the same time it gives users the flexibility to purchase a new version when they want to vs having to get a new version every year.


    The maintenance model requires a yearly fee to keep current and charges for any down time in maintenance. On the other hand it's license is perpetual so the user keeps using what he purchased.


    The subscription model is a newer concept that I feel has advantages when it comes to using updated software. It's cost is typically less then a maintenance model, the only draw back that I can see is not being a perpetual license.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aldepoalo View Post
    Help me understand ( as a CAD CAM vendor ) which licensing is most wanted.

    1- Upgrade model

    You buy the a software version and pay for the next version if you want it.

    2- Maintenance model

    You buy the software and pay a yearly fee to get the next version when available

    3- Subscription model

    You buy the software and pay a yearly fee to get the next version when available
    Al

    Do you see anything wrong with having all three options open and available?

    1: Upgrade - Fine for those who are on limited funds and do not need the most up-to-date version.
    The original FeatureCAM policy also addressed your concern: A purchase of a seat ( with or without maintenance contract ) also included the upgrade
    to the next release, regardless when it was to come out.

    2: Maintenance is fine for most shops, small and large. Yeah, may gripe about the cost of maintenance, but hey, it's up to the individual.

    3: Subscription is a nice addition for those who just want to get into the tool for minimal up-front investment.
    After a while they have the choice to either purchase a perpetual seat or to remain on subscription for as long as they want.

    The Adobe and Autodesk type " eat this and like it " licensing however .....

    Well, let's just say that I see no technical limitations whatsoever that all three options couldn't be maintained side by side.
    Basically I don't buy the Autodesk garbage about having to support various licensing is somehow different.
    It should not make any difference where does ET phones home to, let it be the local PC registry, a network server, a dongle or Motherland in the cloud.
    The license authentication may be different, but the software otherwise is all the same and identical across the board.
    If it isn't, then it is different by design and purposeful intent.

    Just to be clear: I am on maintenance for FC and IV-Ultimate, and yet, both of those pieces of software that I use day-to-day is still the 2 years old versions.
    There was nothing earth shattering added that would make my life much easier or faster. I do have a PC with the latest and greatest installed, but use it only for
    down conversion if/when needed.
    My money, My business, My choice!

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    Hello.

    I would like to be given a choice. Though I fail to see the value of a subscription system for cam as unlike photoshop it does not see significant innovations each update cycle. Also after four years of delcam subscription I would be at the same financial investment as esprit but would have to continue paying for it as long as I want to run the machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plutoniumsalmon View Post
    Hello.

    I would like to be given a choice. Though I fail to see the value of a subscription system for cam as unlike photoshop it does not see significant innovations each update cycle. Also after four years of delcam subscription I would be at the same financial investment as esprit but would have to continue paying for it as long as I want to run the machine.
    THIS ^^^^^ ! This is all about money! Make no mistake. They (Autodesk) can do whatever they want (and will).
    The sad thing is: they are going to kill off a great product in the process. Because: subscription SUCKS!
    I said exactly that to my rep the other day when I signed my maintenance contract. And, she chuckled.
    I said: "I didn't say anything funny, subscription CAM is the stupidest fucking thing I have ever seen."
    Her response: "There is a common opinion about that. We are well aware of your feelings."

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    Quote Originally Posted by aldepoalo View Post
    Help me understand ( as a CAD CAM vendor ) which licensing is most wanted.

    1- Upgrade model

    You buy the a software version and pay for the next version if you want it.

    2- Maintenance model

    You buy the software and pay a yearly fee to get the next version when available

    3- Subscription model

    You buy the software and pay a yearly fee to get the next version when available


    The upgrade model causes issues for new customers that purchase just before the next version is released.
    At the same time it gives users the flexibility to purchase a new version when they want to vs having to get a new version every year.


    The maintenance model requires a yearly fee to keep current and charges for any down time in maintenance. On the other hand it's license is perpetual so the user keeps using what he purchased.


    The subscription model is a newer concept that I feel has advantages when it comes to using updated software. It's cost is typically less then a maintenance model, the only draw back that I can see is not being a perpetual license.
    I can not speak for anybody else. But, my opinion: For what the software companies charge? My software damn sure better never stop working at whatever option or level I last paid for.
    I understand paying for maintenance. But, the only perspective I can muster when pondering the subscription model is extortion.
    I am not a very smart guy. But, I am no dummy either. And, definitely NOT naive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aldepoalo View Post
    Help me understand ( as a CAD CAM vendor ) which licensing is most wanted.

    1- Upgrade model

    You buy the a software version and pay for the next version if you want it.

    2- Maintenance model

    You buy the software and pay a yearly fee to get the next version when available

    3- Subscription model
    You missed one :

    Rational Model :

    Buy the software. It actually works as advertised. When or if anything newer comes along that actually works better, buy that. You get to sell the old copy to whomever you want, like a used car or tricycle.

    Software that doesn't do what it claims gets fixed for free, like a car that doesn't stop the wheels when you hit the brake pedal.

    Quit snivelling, develop a real product that has real value and you won't have to invent all these "how shall we fuck the customer now ?" tricks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    You missed one :

    Rational Model :

    Buy the software. It actually works as advertised. When or if anything newer comes along that actually works better, buy that. You get to sell the old copy to whomever you want, like a used car or tricycle.

    Software that doesn't do what it claims gets fixed for free, like a car that doesn't stop the wheels when you hit the brake pedal.

    Quit snivelling, develop a real product that has real value and you won't have to invent all these "how shall we fuck the customer now ?" tricks.
    Exactly!!

    Build software and update it with features that makes me WANT to give you my money for the product.

    Focus on building the best product with the best support you can and the money will follow. However focus on the money and you will fail.

    I know that many software companies are headed that direction or already are there. Adobe, Microsoft, Peachtree, Autodesk, Onshape etc....
    But I wonder if there is more success in some industries like photo/graphics creation and editing or word processing than there is in the CAD/CAM/CAE industry. Only time will tell. I was thinking the Adobe change over to subscription went a little quicker in the recover than the ADSK one is.

    Autodesk layoffed 950 in 2016 and now another 1150 in 2017. In total that is almost 20% of their work force. They also sold off some parts and consolidated others. Only time will tell if it was for the better.

    Autodesk Cuts 1,15 Jobs | Fortune

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    and you won't have to invent all these "how shall we fuck the customer now ?" tricks.
    This is what pisses me off. I hate nothing more than my intelligence being questioned by a salesman.
    They act like we can't see the fucking coming from a mile away. Ohh, I see it! It is painfully obvious.

    "only pay when you need it" is the one that turns me red. I built my business on it! I need it every damn day!
    That is why I bought a perpetual license in the first place. And, why I pay maintenance.
    For you to swoop in, and fuck with that? How well do you think I am gonna like that?

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    Imagine a situation. You spend all this money per year, you build templates, tool libraries post modifications. It runs perfect. Then they update shit breaks you fix it so it goes. Then they decide to start increasing the price. Scares the bejusus out of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    This is what pisses me off. I hate nothing more than my intelligence being questioned by a salesman.
    Exactly the reason why I don't have a copy of Bobcad 30 in my office today!

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    I'd prefer the upgrade model, but can tolerate the maintenance model.

    What is absolutely out of the question for any software that I buy, is for that SW to stop working when I stop paying. It is essential that files I create this year can be read 10 years from now. That's totally non-negotiable, and yes, we keep obsolete machines running obsolete OSes available to ensure we can do just that.

    Adobe went to a pure subscription model with Creative Cloud licensing, and as a result I refuse to license any current Adobe applications. (Sometimes it's painful. I would buy a license for Adobe InDesign today, if they offered upgrade or maintenance model licensing.) Same rule will apply to any other SW vendor with a pure subscription model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    My software damn sure better never stop working at whatever option or level I last paid for.
    THIS.
    X 10BillTrillion.

    Al,
    As a business, you need to be able to double click your icon and the software fires up. 7 days a week, 365 days per year.
    If you're a business owner, having ANY other option which risks this happening is commercial suicide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    You missed one :

    Rational Model :

    Buy the software. It actually works as advertised. When or if anything newer comes along that actually works better, buy that. You get to sell the old copy to whomever you want, like a used car or tricycle.

    Software that doesn't do what it claims gets fixed for free, like a car that doesn't stop the wheels when you hit the brake pedal.

    Quit snivelling, develop a real product that has real value and you won't have to invent all these "how shall we fuck the customer now ?" tricks.
    Look at how McNeel & Associates handles Rhino. It's exactly as you described. Never an additional charge, and 24/7 support for as long as you run the product. And when an update comes out every 5 years or so, it's up to you whether to buy it or not. And guess what? Every version is backwards compatible. What happens if you want to sell it? No problem, all they ask is that you register the sale with them so they can update their records in case the new owner needs support.

    That's how it should be done in the CAM world too.

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    Subscription is extortion, plain and simple. I don't care what sales pitch they throw at you.
    Here is the reality:
    Subscription = a yearly or monthly payment $$$$$$!
    If you miss that payment, your TOOL! stops working.
    If you think there is any other reason for that other than to extort money? You are a fool.
    The lower initial entry is BAIT! because once you start building a business, and it gets rolling along nicely:
    They have a firm grasp on your business right by the balls! Don't pay? Guess what? What good is a CNC machine shop with no CAM?
    Business is booming, do you have time to start over with a new CAM? Hell-no!
    If you think for one second they are not banking on this FACT, you are a fool!
    Subscription is an angle for Autodesk to gain profit long term. NOBODY will ever convince me otherwise.

    Now, here is the kicker: I did not buy FeatureCAM from Autodicks! Yet, here I am stuck dealing with the crooked fuckers!

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