1943 Sidney 16x54 Refurb
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  1. #1
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    Default 1943 Sidney 16x54 Refurb

    After doing a lot of work on a 10x36, I finally managed to convince dad to get a little upgrade, and boy what an upgrade. This is our new to us 1943 Sidney 16x54. It's the 16 speed model with the headstock full of herringbone gears. Gorgeous inside and very quet.

    I inspected it under power, though I didn't do a hugely wonderful job inspecting it, I forgot to look at a lot of things. It's got busted up handles, the feed clutches don't hold, the cross slide leadscrew bracket is busted and there is quite a knocking from the QCGB at higher speeds. It's got a decent amount of wear and damage, but I'm confident we will be making good parts before spring. While I was there poking around, I noticed the seller had the original steady. He was thinking about adapting it to his new lathe and didn't mention it in the add. He tossed it in for free, which really sweetened the deal.

    I don't post much on PM as I can find some of the members here to be, uhh, hard on newbies, but I know you guys appreciate these old machines, I think there is a better wealth of knowledge on Sidney lathes here than anywhere else on the web. I'm sure I'll need some help getting this old beast back into shape.

    sidney.jpg

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    Day Zero:

    The lathe was about 150 miles away, but the seller had it totally ready to go and already rigged when we got there. He had it between a two post car lift with two arms under the headstock casting in the access panel holes, one arm under the chip pan, and the other pulling on a chain rapped under the chip pan. I know you aren't supposed to lift by that, but thankfully these old lathes aren't Chinese pot metal and it didn't bend at all. He had about 30 feet in front of his shop door, and the truck and trailer were about 40 ft long, but I got super lucky and backed it right under first try. From the initial lift to setting down on the trailer was 15 minutes, tops. That was pretty awesome, lifting these can be stressful. Dad's poor dying Isuzu NPR is very short on power for such a journey, I was flat out for a considerable portion of the journey, but we made it home with no issues.

    Day One:

    Dad started off with the pressure washer and removing weight (and things that need work) while I started prepping the unloading area. The more we dug the more damage we found. Nothing to cause any regrets yet, but it will certainly need some work. The pressure washer reveled a large crack in tailstock housing where the spindle is. It's all the way deep (about 5/8") and 3-4" long. That will be tig or gas brazed. The wingies on the cross slide bracket will be cut off and new steel ones brazed on. The tailstock spindle has been butchered with a drill. Someone made their own ejection slot and drilled some other holes for good measure. I hope the taper is ok. The included 12" 4 jaw is entirely clapped out. It might function but I don't know how well. Jaws are very wiggly. Dad had a fantastic identical replacement a few years ago, but sold it as we didn't have a machine for it. Oh well, there are more out there.

    Lots of machine work too. The bushings for the carriage rods will need to be remade. Same for the leadscrew bushings. Tailstock nut is missing half it's threads, so there is another thing to do. It did not come with a motor, and the original motor pulley is something like 1 3/8 with a very well made (almost invisible) reducer down to some bastard size. I will need to press it out and make a new one. I guess it's finally time to get some keyway broaches and make my new keyways. Dad just got a 5 ton Dake arbor press so that should go well.

    The original motor was an 1140 RPM 3 phase Westinghouse, we will be replacing it with a period correct 5hp 1750RPM repulsion-induction single-phase motor as that is what we have on hand. That will give us a nice little speed increase up to around 830 RPM in high gear.

    This was originally supposed to be just a refurbish, but now it looks like we will be working on everything but the motor, and painting is as well since there is almost nothing left. So I'll call this a simi-restoration.

  3. Likes Elwood1968 liked this post
  4. #3
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    Manual if needed

    https://redirect.viglink.com/?format...m%2Fsidney.pdf

    (assuming link still works)

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    Got it unloaded today.

    img_7027s.jpg
    img_7030s.jpg

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    The thread dial housing was snapped. How do you even do that?
    Tailstock tail piece is busted.
    Lots of broken handles.
    Apparently someone, somewhere wanted an ejection port and had a drill...
    img_7003s.jpgimg_7007s.jpgimg_7009s.jpgimg_7011s.jpgimg_7012s.jpg

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    The ears on the cross-slide bracket will be cut off and have steel brazed in place. That was noticeable even from the facebook photos so I expected this repair.

    img_7017s.jpgimg_7014s.jpgimg_7019s.jpgimg_7024s.jpgimg_7026s.jpg

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    Ouch....
    My Sidney had been dropped on its face-looks like this one did a couple somersaults.

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    Quote Originally Posted by svs View Post
    Ouch....
    My Sidney had been dropped on its face-looks like this one did a couple somersaults.
    I don't think so. The handles that would be broken if it fell over, aren't. The carriage and cross-slide are perfectly straight. I think it's been more of a victim off ham-fisted operators and millrights.

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    Did the previous owner use it for an anvil? It might have taken less pictures to show what they didn't break.
    That said.............I would likely be a sucker for a Sidney, it would be hard to turn my back on it.

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    well,was this part broken on your old sid??-pat
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails broke.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by rj1939 View Post
    Did the previous owner use it for an anvil? It might have taken less pictures to show what they didn't break.
    That said.............I would likely be a sucker for a Sidney, it would be hard to turn my back on it.
    I definitely was wearing beer goggles when inspecting or something. Especially being herringbone. Not ever gonna be any more of those. Everything is fixable though. It will be a good machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by pat pounden View Post
    well,was this part broken on your old sid??-pat
    Yikes. If they were gonna lift by the headstock, then lift by the spindle at least.

    I've done more work to in since my last update. The cross-slide is pretty un-abused, only some wear and a tiny amount of damage. Here is the threading stop so you can re-zero with quickly without looking when threading. I don't totally understand how this part works yet. It seems like there must be some way to engage and disengage it but I don't see it yet. There is normally a ball bearing that rides in the groove, but none such was in there. It seems like the old ball got a flat spot in it, then got drug around the housing for a ride leaving a groove. It's not idea but I don't think it's enough to cause any issue. That's the only damage on the upper half of the cross slide. Otherwise it's just worn, but not too badly. There is no scraping for flaking marks to be found anywhere on the machine. Were these scraped/flaked? If it was, it must have spent some time outside as there is nothing even on the very extremes of the ways.

    The cross slide screw is worn. About 20 thousands of backlash in the middle, ends are tight. The screw is shiny and polished with little to no scratching. The cast iron nut however must have been packed with chips many times and the threads are fairly torn up. Still serviceable though if need be. The end of the screw is worn and pitted. There is a pinned on collar that is loose that should be a press fit. It did press off, telling me the seat is worn. Also on the end is an extremely bastard 0.460-32 thread for the bearing preload. It's crusty too.

    img_7046s.jpgimg_7044s.jpgimg_7045s.jpgimg_7049s.jpgimg_7043s.jpg

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    he tailstock uses the same thread as the cross-slide. The nut is 2 1/8" long with 1" of thread wiped out. It can be turned around. The shaft threads are decent but the bearing surface has also been repaired once before. Dad also discover the shaft is bent and we aren't great at straightening them.

    Now here is the dilemma. I have a lathe. Soon to be two. I'm not afraid to use it. I'm highly tempted to remake the tailstock shaft and the cross slide shaft. If I did that I'd want nuts for both. The cross slide isn't hard, I can get threaded rod for $25, turn the one end down and weld a stub on the other, machine it and cut the keyway. The tailstock shaft I can turn anytime, but I'm afraid it may be too flexy without a follow rest, which I do not have yet.

    Mainly I just need a 3/4-8 Left Hand ACME tap, which I also do not have. I'd be quite interested in borrowing, renting, or buying one for cheap if anyone has any leads. Cheapest I've seen is $104 on ebay. I could try making one, but I've never done that before, and I also don't have any of the amce thread gauges, so no good way to inspect the finished product.

    img_7038s.jpgimg_7035s.jpgimg_7036s.jpgimg_7040s.jpgimg_7042s.jpg

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    I have a question for you guys that have taken apart you clutch. @johnoder, @b2major9th, @KD4MXA

    What are these grooves and holes for in the bearing caps? I assume the bearings are greased, but I don't see the purpose of these if they are greased? Seals? Felt? I didn't remove anything, but someone had clearly been in there before. Thanks in advance.

    image_6465.jpgimage_6463.jpg

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    Looks labyrinth seals. Check for drains at the bottom and make sure it's oriented correctly. These catch any oil that tries to run out and routes it back inside the gearbox or headstock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike C. View Post
    Looks labyrinth seals. Check for drains at the bottom and make sure it's oriented correctly. These catch any oil that tries to run out and routes it back inside the gearbox or headstock.
    Not lubricated with headstock oil. There is an alemite fitting that feeds it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike C. View Post
    Looks labyrinth seals. Check for drains at the bottom and make sure it's oriented correctly. These catch any oil that tries to run out and routes it back inside the gearbox or headstock.
    Mike I think I owe you an apology. After looking at some other pieces I see little grooves that should do pretty much what you describe. Thanks for the info.

    Well. I finally have something to show. Though it's been raining a ton lately, it's finally primed and pushed inside. The clutch has also been rebuilt and the motor put in. We've decided on the paint colors, and I think they look great!

    img_7103ecs.jpgimg_7104ecs.jpgimg_7102ecs.jpgimg_7100ecs.jpg

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    Sooooooooo when do we get pics from inside the headstock?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    Sooooooooo when do we get pics from inside the headstock?
    That's the question everyone has been asking me lol. I know it feels like a tease, but I honestly haven't pulled the cover yet since we got it. I didn't want to get any more dirt and contaminates in than necessary. When I do,I'll host some full resolution photos externally so you all can enjoy. Maybe this weekend. We still need to investigate the oil pump and make sure it's ok and get some new oil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClappedOutBport View Post
    That's the question everyone has been asking me lol. I know it feels like a tease, but I honestly haven't pulled the cover yet since we got it. I didn't want to get any more dirt and contaminates in than necessary. When I do,I'll host some full resolution photos externally so you all can enjoy. Maybe this weekend. We still need to investigate the oil pump and make sure it's ok and get some new oil.
    Yada yada yada...not yet.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    Lots to do, but also lots done. When we went through this bearing the bearing holder, it had two angular contacts for the leadscrew. We tried to remove them, but of course they blew up because they had no strength in the opposite loading direction. We had to slit the bearings to get them out, but managed to do so with no damage to the holder. To make it easier for the next guy, (as the next guy is usually me) I added in some knock-out slots. The new bearings are tapered rollers. We saw no reason to go back with the angular contact. There is a seal, so these will be oil bath bearings.

    I also make a new cap for the oil bath bearings in the leadscrew holder. The old one was busted. Dad found a plumbing cap which was just perfect.

    Oh, and it's blue now.

    img_20191231_154303525_burst001s.jpgimg_20200110_194828704s.jpgimg_20200110_194840031s.jpgimg_7107ecs.jpgimg_7108ecs.jpg


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