Assessing K&T 205 S-12
Close
Login to Your Account
Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    4
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default Assessing K&T 205 S-12

    I'm looking for my first mill and have decided on a horizontal/vertical machine with a ram. I found a K&T 205 with a dealer in Ohio. Unfortunately, there's no way for me to inspect the machine prior to purchase. The dealer has recorded two videos of the machine. If anyone has a few minutes to take a look at provide some feedback, I'd really appreciate it. I'm picking up an odd noise from the vertical head, but I'm not sure what's typical on a machine like this.

    Dealer listing:

    Kearney & Trecker - Horizontal Mill With | Industrial Assets Machinery

    Machine Videos:

    https://youtu.be/smQ13uG2iV02389

    Kearney & Trecker - Horizontal Mill With Vertical Independent Overarm | 12" x 56"Stock #6595P - YouTube


    Thanks!!
    Last edited by texasgunsmith; 11-07-2020 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Link update

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Manchester, England
    Posts
    9,155
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1497
    Likes (Received)
    6105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pbunt911 View Post
    I'm looking for my first mill and have decided on a horizontal/vertical machine with a ram. I found a K&T 205 with a dealer in Ohio. Unfortunately, there's no way for me to inspect the machine prior to purchase. The dealer has recorded two videos of the machine. If anyone has a few minutes to take a look at provide some feedback, I'd really appreciate it. I'm picking up an odd noise from the vertical head, but I'm not sure what's typical on a machine like this.

    Dealer listing:

    Kearney & Trecker - Horizontal Mill With | Industrial Assets Machinery

    Machine Videos:

    https://youtu.be/smQ13uG2iV02389

    Kearney & Trecker - Horizontal Mill With Vertical Independent Overarm | 12" x 56"Stock #6595P - YouTube


    Thanks!!
    I've worked on European versions of this style of machine and they aren't as versatile as you would think. The lack of a quill on the vertical head can be problematical. It's a better vertical head than nothing but that's about it. On some of these types of machines the taper is different in each of the spindles, that can be a nuisance.

    I don't know much about that particular machine other than " K&T " made some fine machines.

    If I was looking for my first milling machine I'd be looking at a " Bridgeport ". They're a good machine to learn on without being a real handful if things go wrong. I'd definitely go for a vertical machine, they're much more user friendly than a horizontal milling machine.

    Regards Tyrone.
    Last edited by Tyrone Shoelaces; 11-08-2020 at 09:51 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,629
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4926
    Likes (Received)
    931

    Default

    Do you have formal training/experience in using a milling machine? If the answer is "no much" or "no", I second Tyrone comments:

    Especially milling machines could be extremely dangerous: with a few horse power at the tool, can rip the piece off the vice or hold downs and throwing it at you with lethal consequences.

    Although I know of a technician who had his stomach cut open by a Bridgeport, he is still alive. Bigger machines are much less forgiving of any mistake.

    Despite not being so great in terms of rigidity, Bridgeport style milling machines are rather versatile and, as Tyrone said, a quill is extremely useful: you can bore holes at a specific angle without having to build fixtures to hold the part at that angle, you have some sensitivity while plunging a drill or mill, etc.

    Otherwise, this mill seems in decent conditions and in the video felt quieter than most mills. On top of running it through all speeds and feeds, I would investigate more the difficulty of engaging the traverse feed (Y in vertical, Z in horizontal).

    Paolo

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    marysville ohio
    Posts
    10,584
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2964
    Likes (Received)
    7306

    Default

    First of all, 1500 RPM on the vertical spindle? Completely useless. BP will run 4000 . Acurite 3, about 40 years old, will it survive a trip across country, who knows? Good luck if you need parts, they will be $$$$ expensive $$$$. Last but not least, price is about 9x what it is worth. Don't forget it will cost 1500.00 or so to ship it to California. Hate to be a buzzkill but for that money you can have your pick of near new Bridgeports and a boat load of tooling. And don't forget, if you break it you can have reasonably priced parts the next day.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Imlay City, Michigan
    Posts
    2,182
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    125
    Likes (Received)
    245

    Default

    I agree with starting out on a Bridgeport!

    Another option, you could get a Deckel, the latter is not cheap but has a quill and plenty of accessories, albeit pricey and sometimes hard to find?

    There are several versions available, FP1 being the smallest......here’s the Deckel forum link!

    https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...a-abene-mills/

    Good luck, let us know what you end up getting?

    Kevin

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Wisconsin Rapids WI
    Posts
    433
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3
    Likes (Received)
    88

    Default

    I went through this a few years ago as fairly inexperienced ( still am by most standards ) machinist with only a Burke millrite. I wanted a vertical horizontal and like big old machines. I ended up with a Rambaudi that isn't very practical but does what I want. I like having a power quill and consider it a big deal for someone with low experience. The vertical head gets 95% of the use but the horizontal is really nice for the 5%. I want power axis on all three as well. The 1500 rpm limit is limiting for some things although I have a Moore jig Borer that handles higher speeds for boring which is a lot of what I need.

    I'd watch for Wells Index and for larger machines, even the Jafo, Toolmex, Polamco type mills from Poland. The #2 size is close to what you are looking at and some have a quill. Head swivels side to side rather than front to back on my Rambaudi and they come in either 40 or 50 taper. Either is easy to source holders for I really wish I had a power drawbar. The Moore is a 100 times easier to swap heads on so it gets the smaller drilling and tapping. Good luck, Davedscn3874.jpg

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Manchester, England
    Posts
    9,155
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1497
    Likes (Received)
    6105

    Default

    As far as I can see the readout is only a two axis unit although I can see three scales on the machine. I don't know who made the bracketry for the readout box but it's a really ramshackle, Rube Goldberg, thing.

    The machine appears to have a universal table.

    The vertical head is quite noisy, it's also got a driving dog missing. I don't like to see things like that, if the operator has lost one and can't be bothered to make another one it's a poor do. Not a good sign.

    The run through was a bit basic, no sign of the coolant system working, that's a must have on a mill for me. No sign of the read-out system actually working. Any work lights on the machine ?

    It reminded me of a line of Russian machines I used to install. A very similar design in lots of ways. When they copy a machine they usually pick something decent to copy.

    Regards Tyrone.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Missoula Mt
    Posts
    1,268
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    55
    Likes (Received)
    566

    Default

    Way overpriced and too far away...Phil

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    4
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Thank you all very much! I appreciate all the feedback. I’ll keep looking. I was about to pull the trigger on a Decker FP4, but another buyer beat me to it. There’s a really clean FP2 for sale, but seller wants $10k. How do you guys go about finding good machines at a reasonable price? Thanks again!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    marysville ohio
    Posts
    10,584
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2964
    Likes (Received)
    7306

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pbunt911 View Post
    Thank you all very much! I appreciate all the feedback. I’ll keep looking. I was about to pull the trigger on a Decker FP4, but another buyer beat me to it. There’s a really clean FP2 for sale, but seller wants $10k. How do you guys go about finding good machines at a reasonable price? Thanks again!
    Google "surplus record", craigslist, facebook marketplace, stop by all the machine shops in your area, for sale adds on PM. Just start beating the bushes, there are millions of mills around. You should buy my Tree Journeyman 325, Dynapath Delta 20 control is still supported by the manufacturer. Tree parts are no problem to get. Same work area as a Bridgeport, 2X the weight. one of the stiffest knee mills you can buy. 40 taper. Runs great, get into a CNC mill for only 4500.00!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    279
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    52
    Likes (Received)
    75

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pbunt911 View Post
    I'm looking for my first mill and have decided on a horizontal/vertical machine with a ram. I found a K&T 205 with a dealer in Ohio. Unfortunately, there's no way for me to inspect the machine prior to purchase. The dealer has recorded two videos of the machine. If anyone has a few minutes to take a look at provide some feedback, I'd really appreciate it. I'm picking up an odd noise from the vertical head, but I'm not sure what's typical on a machine like this.

    Dealer listing:

    Kearney & Trecker - Horizontal Mill With | Industrial Assets Machinery

    Machine Videos:

    https://youtu.be/smQ13uG2iV02389

    Kearney & Trecker - Horizontal Mill With Vertical Independent Overarm | 12" x 56"Stock #6595P - YouTube


    Thanks!!
    I like the idea of a Horizontal with the vertical-yes the lack of a quill can be a downer, but not that critical. Lots of K & T parts available, from different sources-DRO's get a replacement if you need it-expect it to leak oil-but overall one of the best machines ever made-Here is another one I have had my eye on-same machine sold by Machinery Values & Belmont-a little closer inspection-looks like its in Belmont's Building-but I don't know-have not heard anything bad about Machinery Values and don't know about Belmont-but of course, someone will always be unhappy about something-just remember its not new or perfect-however like the Model T-built to run forever...screen-shot-2020-11-08-12.16.26-pm.jpgscreen-shot-2020-11-08-12.17.08-pm.jpg

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Damascus, MD
    Posts
    1,629
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4926
    Likes (Received)
    931

    Default

    Driving dog missing: to me it looks like removed on purpose to run both the native NMTB and CAT tooling. Terrible laziness in not machining a replacement dog that could work with both type of tooling.

    I was somehow struck from the mounting of the X axis scale in the front: generally, you see them mounted in the rear (at the expense of Y axis travel) because it is much easier: in the front you need to deal with the adjustable and emergency feed stops.

    It's true that you can find a lot of parts (in unknown/questionnable conditions) for older K&T. I don't think this model is equally common and so the spares.

    Paolo

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    4
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve's Hobby View Post
    I like the idea of a Horizontal with the vertical-yes the lack of a quill can be a downer, but not that critical. Lots of K & T parts available, from different sources-DRO's get a replacement if you need it-expect it to leak oil-but overall one of the best machines ever made-Here is another one I have had my eye on-same machine sold by Machinery Values & Belmont-a little closer inspection-looks like its in Belmont's Building-but I don't know-have not heard anything bad about Machinery Values and don't know about Belmont-but of course, someone will always be unhappy about something-just remember its not new or perfect-however like the Model T-built to run forever...screen-shot-2020-11-08-12.16.26-pm.jpgscreen-shot-2020-11-08-12.17.08-pm.jpg
    Yeah, I emailed Machinery Values about that machine, but they don’t have the arbor support for it. Might not be that hard to find, but a quick eBay search yielded no hits.

    Thanks for your thoughts!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Manchester, England
    Posts
    9,155
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1497
    Likes (Received)
    6105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paolo_MD View Post
    Driving dog missing: to me it looks like removed on purpose to run both the native NMTB and CAT tooling. Terrible laziness in not machining a replacement dog that could work with both type of tooling.

    I was somehow struck from the mounting of the X axis scale in the front: generally, you see them mounted in the rear (at the expense of Y axis travel) because it is much easier: in the front you need to deal with the adjustable and emergency feed stops.

    It's true that you can find a lot of parts (in unknown/questionnable conditions) for older K&T. I don't think this model is equally common and so the spares.

    Paolo
    I thought that about the long travel readout scale. 90% of the time they are mounted on the rear of the table/saddle, Although I have seen the " Newall " style of round tube mounted on the front.

    I'm a big fan of " Bridgeports " for people starting out down the milling machine road. Not too complicated but given time you can do most things on one. Of course having power feeds and RPT on all 3 axis is great but I broke a few end mills as a kid getting too ambitious powering the knee upwards on an old " Cincy " !

    Unless you have a specific job or series of jobs in mind for a horizontal machine you're unlikely to get the best out of it.

    A guy I did work for got a pretty new No 4 Cincy horizontal in exchange for an unpaid bill a few years ago. It had coolant damage in the knee. I repaired it for him and then installed it. I'll never forget the motor sound when we switched it on for the first time. It was like a Formula 1 car starting up. A terrific sound with bags of horse power. I'll bet it never used a tenth of the power.

    Regards Tyrone.

  15. Likes Paolo_MD liked this post
  16. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    marysville ohio
    Posts
    10,584
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2964
    Likes (Received)
    7306

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pbunt911 View Post
    Yeah, I emailed Machinery Values about that machine, but they don’t have the arbor support for it. Might not be that hard to find, but a quick eBay search yielded no hits.

    Thanks for your thoughts!
    Never buy a horizontal without an arbor support, chances of finding one slim. you could be looking for years.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •