B & S no 2 universal or K & T model H
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    Default B & S no 2 universal or K & T model H

    O.k. Pro's and cons


    Go!

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodsrider845 View Post
    O.k. Pro's and cons


    Go!
    YOU are the one with the NEED? And we do not even know what that need IS?

    If YOU don't know enough about your needs, to sess out which is better for YOUR use?

    Fallback to wheelbarrow.

    Ask us if it should be one wheel style or two?

    Next fallback is zipper vs buttons for yer trews.

    Then bum-fodder in plain or embossed.

    Fall back to left nipple or right nipple, yah know the only thing left is which sex you get conceived as, yah?

    Bit late in life for that, even if you want to revisit the event and hope for a new viewpoint as you repeat the course.



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    I'd go with the one with rear controls.

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    I'd say you are looking at two champions there. Both are American made old iron, both used proven designs and were built to build tanks, and planes and cranes and ships and anything else. Take your flashlight and dial indicator when you go look at them. Look for backlash, wear and signs of abuse not fresh paint. A machine that has been maintained is usually easy to spot. A little light on the ways and screws and gears reveals a lot of history. Also look for breaks or repairs. That 15 minutes close up may eliminate one of them right away especially if you get to actually hear them run. If they are still even then on to what goes with the sale. Arbor supports,vertical head,vise arbors etc. I have a B&S 2A Light Universal and it is a nice versatile and accurate medium duty machine for being 80 years old. I guess you could buy them both and run a comparison and do a video to show us the highlights of each.
    spaeth

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    I'd go with the one with rear controls.
    Which, without seeing them, could be either one or both, correct? From what I read, it seems like they both could have been equipped with rear controls?

    I'm having an extremely hard time with the sellers of multiple horizontals, trying to get info and pictures from them.

    Does owning a horizontal damage your brain or something? It's weird, seeing as these people are trying to sell these machines.

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    No rear controls on K&T until you get up to 3H on the K&T - where they were optional

    From what I read, it seems like they both could have been equipped with rear controls?
    There is also VINTAGE to consider - K&T was patenting stuff in 1913 that would have years long impact on the industry - like double overarms and flanged spindle noses - but you might not want their somewhat clunky product of those days

    B&S? They made their first Universal in 1859!

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodsrider845 View Post
    I'm having an extremely hard time with the sellers of multiple horizontals, trying to get info and pictures from them.

    Does owning a horizontal damage your brain or something? It's weird, seeing as these people are trying to sell these machines.
    Not really. Though it is a HUGE advantage if one is fully ambidextrous and can visualize easily in mirror-image, same as it was later-on - plotting aircraft tracks, NORAD, back side of the plexiglass wall, both hands at once, separate plots.



    Horizontals, it is assumed if you don't know them and already appreciate them, you aren't even a remotely likely buyer.

    Lovely workhorses, and "natural" as walking to a mill hand. Pain in the twisted NECK, crossed eyeballs, skint head as well as frustration annnoyance of the arse to a BirdPorter who just wants a cavity cut and cannot "see it" mirror-image, inside his own head through a slab of metal and JF trust his con-trols to do what they do, eyes-on not needed.

    Manual Horizontals don't fetch enough of a price to cover any significant discussion, either.

    NC, then CNC ate the food-chain out from under mills even before it ate anything else.

    "The Mill" didn't FAIL. Others did, not they. Cinncinnati Milacron PLANNED their withdrawal from machine-tools to go off and survive to the present day. In plastic molding and industrial chemicals. See "Cimcool".

    John mentioned 1859. Pretty sure the line-shaft converted B&S # 0 Universal Herr Pelz trained me up on, 1959 - '63 .. was a late 1800's to early nineteen-ought model, as the company had bought it used 1923.

    Jeff (maynah) showed up on PM with a #1 Universal parting out? The swivel and table are here now. Positioner project, Alzmettal DP. AND NOT "MILL" drill. Precise positioning, only. Second gearmotor, NOT "servo" arrived this week. Too old to be cranking handles a foot or so, each direction if DC can do 98% of it.

    Didn't have to ask about what he had. Just the freighting of it.

    It was written into my very bones, age 14 onward.

    "Supervised" 'til age 16 by PA law of the era. But that only meant "under the same roof" as a Master ... if you minded yer manners right sharply, every minute of the day, no slacking nor "kid stuff", near as dammit 100% German, Austrian, "Pennsylvania Deutsch" team. Serious folk, every one, when at their craft. Gave Herr Pelz cause to throw the hammer at my feet exactly ONCE, then never again.

    Saved THAT f*****g around, flying airy-planes and s**t for me later years ... after the car payments and mortgages were ancient history .. and the food supply was safe and sound!


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    Dude, the only ducking questions I asked them is how much, what tooling, can I get pictures, and can you load or do I need to bring my forklift.

    I know how to run a horizontal, it's not magic. I ask these questions because I respect the opinions of the men and women that have run them, and figure that their insight is priceless. Not because I'm a moron that is going to try and take it apart to carry it up to my tree house.

    Sheesh.

    My point is, if you want to sell something, you answer a few questions, or just flat out say I don't know, come look at it. I can't even get a location on most of these machines, like it's a super secret squirrel society.

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    brownsharpe1.jpg

    Looks pretty damn clean to me.


    Is that the "light" universal? I have no numbers from it. Thats the only picture.

    Appearance wise, it looks a little less stout than the K&T. Anyone know for sure? (I know, I'm asking for more input while providing shit info)

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodsrider845 View Post
    brownsharpe1.jpg

    Looks pretty damn clean to me.


    Is that the "light" universal? I have no numbers from it. Thats the only picture.

    Appearance wise, it looks a little less stout than the K&T. Anyone know for sure? (I know, I'm asking for more input while providing shit info)
    I’ve looked at that exact machine and can tell you about it.

    PM me if you want details... I also have more pictures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodsrider845 View Post
    Not because I'm a moron that is going to try and take it apart to carry it up to my tree house.
    My bad. Yer past record had me fooled.



    B&S were ALWAYS a skosh lighter than K&T. Or appeared to be. Tried for finesse. "Elegance", even.

    Don't let it fool yah. K&T was easily as precise and just enough stouter where it mattered to stay that way longer. Compare vertical thickness of the table, f'rinstance. "Unwise" to use it as long-term parking-place for a heavy rotab or DH, B&S especially.

    BOTH made good mills. Very.

    Meanwhile, up until around the time NC entered, Cinncinati was looked down on by BOTH as makers of clumsier "crudeware", sold to a price. Light "Toolmaster" scored grins, but WTF? Competition was a mere BirdPort. Horizontals, serious metal to move? Yah wanted a K&T. Accuracy to the point of borderline insanity? Gorton. Just don't expect a "big" Gorton to have the work envelope for big PARTS!

    Eventually, B&S got into a war with their Union. Both lost. Badly as could be. ISTR they set some sprt of world record for how loooong such a war could run before all-hands just DIED, economically if not also in human-generational terms.

    K&T merged with Cross - engine-block gurus - and suffered when the auto industry suffered. Got hurt worse-yet when it globalized to new makes and newer technology - the barn door wide-open to Japanese & Euro-pee-on competition.

    Wasn't as if either of them ever made bad mills. Just suboptimal bizness decisions for their futures at tough times.

    Meanwhile "condition, condition, condition." Most of these puppies were already old when J.O. or I STARTED. That's a very long, long way from new by NOW.

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    Default B&S Light

    That is the same machine I have. It is not happy with the huge rotary table on it. I am not familiar with a K&T H. The B&S light is not the billy goat gruff of the line. They made a 2 Standard and a 3 which had added beef and HP. Here are a few pics of mine earning it's keep. It sets next to the Bridgeport and on a good day the Horizontal will be milling ends and the BP will be locating and drilling holes. Depends a lot on what you want to do. My rule is if I can't lift it I won't quote it. We did a long run of SS parts,.625 OD x 1/2 with two .028 slots .187 deep cut at the same time holding 4 parts and the B&S did swell on that little stuff too.
    spaeth

    dscn2184.jpgdscn2059.jpgdscn2581.jpgmvc-092s.jpg









    Quote Originally Posted by woodsrider845 View Post
    brownsharpe1.jpg

    Looks pretty damn clean to me.


    Is that the "light" universal? I have no numbers from it. Thats the only picture.

    Appearance wise, it looks a little less stout than the K&T. Anyone know for sure? (I know, I'm asking for more input while providing shit info)

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    You'll be happy to hear that Troyke 15" was sold and wasn't on that machine the last time I saw it.
    However I suspect it had been on there for 15-20 years, as the owner used it for one operation pretty much.

    bs-mill-6.jpg

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    Huh. It sure as hell doesn't look like that anymore.

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    I'm supposing here....

    Is that the "light" universal? I have no numbers from it. Thats the only picture
    The upper column sticking out coupled with the obviously not very heavy over arms says LIGHT to me

    Note some have knee motor and others do not - another age indicator - lack of one being older

    Good book on the B&S - by them - Practical treatise on Milling and Milling Machines. Mine is dated 1953

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    Note some have knee motor and others do not - another age indicator - lack of one being older
    THIS.. would be the "determinator" for me.

    A knee gearbox, clutches, rapids are complex enough, however powered

    An independent motor (3/4 HP, "pancake" on the Quartet) makes for easier working and set up as NEITHER of the horizontal nor vertical spindles - each with their own motor - need be turning.

    Independence also improves flexibility as to spacing out restoral or modification tasking towards "not really any sort of emergency" as well.

    NO power to the knee?

    Someone else's mill, not mine. BTDTGTTS, no longer interested in it any more than the hand-crank and storage clips my '59 TR-3 was equipped with "back in the day", present-day Jaguar NOT!



    That basic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    I'm supposing here....



    The upper column sticking out coupled with the obviously not very heavy over arms says LIGHT to me

    Note some have knee motor and others do not - another age indicator - lack of one being older

    Good book on the B&S - by them - Practical treatise on Milling and Milling Machines. Mine is dated 1953
    John, that was exactly my thoughts, hence the question. It sure is a cute little thing, though.

    And yes, it has a power knee. Every thing on the machine functions properly.

    I as surprised at how small it really is when I got there to look at it. She has some weight, though.

    Got a meeting set with the K&T sunday morning. We'll see.

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    If you happen on to a B&S machine, you will find not a lot of information is available, and that B&S made a lot of changes in the later machines. The machine I have is a war board machine that is a combination of their older machines, with a motorized knee.
    The B&S light no 2 mills weigh around 3800lbs, my no 2B plain mill weighs 5100lbs. My machine has the same motorized knee as the light type.
    I have heard that Some B&S mills like the one I have with the "split knee" meaning it is basically hollow through the center instead of a solid box like the others, has these faults- since the saddle ways on the knee are not solid across the top, the saddle clamping will tend to squeeze the ways together, and slipping can occur under very heavy load. one more thing on the saddle ways "that carry the table" on my B%S the ways are narrow, and under heavy off balance table loads, the ways can gall, this has happened to mine, but not severe. The box type knee has muck wider ways like K&T and Cinci.
    An interesting thing about the B&S, is the manuals are not detailed, but the machine is so simply built, it hard to get parts mixed up.

    The mill I have is rusty, but the machine has very little wear. The clean up is going well, but it is hard work and,time consuming.
    I think it will work out good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    If you happen on to a B&S machine, you will find not a lot of information is available,
    Well.. try a USMT "Quartet" for giggles!

    May as well refer to my copy of "The Analects" in Chinese, or "Vom Kriege" in the original German for lack of anything more relevant than the sales brochure!

    On the B&S mills, the links to "vintage..." etc John cited early-on have some good info, but with a drawback.

    The originals were apparently scanned as "text" sources. Result is the "Benday" or "screened" illustrations, parts, setups, examples and all - blended to nearly solid BLACK!



    Those clobbered illustrations were carrying some very useful info.

    A new scan with different settings of what the original contributor had/has, ELSE a new source, properly scanned, would be needed to render them as useful as they were originally.

    I have no B&S source material. I do have the scanning and graphic enhancement goods that could produce better .pdf's

    No patent on that, lots of folks have much the same scanning and retouching tools these days.


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