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Cinci Hyrdrashift with issues, should I buy it? Looking for a manual as well.

kilohertz

Aluminum
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Location
Slightly left of Vernon, BC
Cinci Hyrdrashift with issues, what are possible Hydrashift failure items?

Hello fellow machinists,

So I have been on the hunt for a lathe for my son, found a Voest 17x7', a monster, we have it up and running but are looking for something smaller and a little less, well, violent, monstrous, yikes, and etc.

So this is a 13x48, guessing mid 60's s/n is 550125V-0032, I found at a local machine shop. The seller told me it was working fine, they changed the oil, it started acting up, they parked it. I know NOTHING about this type of drive, guessing it's a little more involved than a Southbend. :) I am a very competent mechanic and don't mind delving into a project. I am hoping it is an "oil" issue, and a clean and flush and put in the correct fluid, hopefully will cure the problem.

I have looked around the forum for info, lots out there, will read over the next few days, but in the meantime, are there things to look out for on these, particular to the hydrashift. I know basically what to look for as far as lathe key items, it's just the Hydrashift has me a little cautious.

Thanks all.

Cheers
 
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Got your email. Manual sent. They are actually not a whole lot more complicated than a SB with the exception of the geared headstock and the actually simple hydraulic control system that shifts it. I was never a fan of the idea until I worked on one. Would love to find one of those smaller ones now. Very, very similar to LeBlond in design and feel, but far more robust gearing in the headstock.
 
Hi Mike,

Thank you so much, appreciate the input. I am going to pick it up tomorrow, will have it home Thursday and will connect to my Baldor VFD 3 phase converter and fire it up, see what the problem is, then tear into it.

Cheers
 
One more quick Q....will these lathes operate correctly when using a VFD? I want to be able to spin this up to 2000RPM, and from what I have found on the web, there were 3 different versions available, STD, high speed, and extra high speed achieving 3000 RPM, and I'm guessing that was just motor RPM changes, all the same headstock gearing. Could anyone confirm this?

Thanks
 
So this is a 13x48, guessing mid 60's s/n is 550125V-0032, I found at a local machine shop. The seller told me it was working fine, they changed the oil, it started acting up, they parked it. I know NOTHING about this type of drive, guessing it's a little more involved than a Southbend. :) I am a very competent mechanic and don't mind delving into a project. I am hoping it is an "oil" issue, and a clean and flush and put in the correct fluid, hopefully will cure the problem.
Could be that the oil "change" was to the wrong oil. They should have used Mobil DTE Light or equivalent in the headstock. Or maybe they didn't remove and clean the strainer in the primary pump input line (it's in the canister hanging below the electric motor on the backside of the headstock).

When you say "acting up", what does that mean? Spindle won't turn? Gears won't shift? Something else?

The factory manual has the procedure for doing a flush and clean of the oil and both strainers (there are two hydraulic pumps on these lathes, thus two strainers).

As to the "drive", the Hydrashift uses a conventional geared headstock, so the hydraulic system does not power the spindle. The hydraulics are used ONLY to shift the gears, and to lubricate the moving parts inside the headstock.

I have looked around the forum for info, lots out there, will read over the next few days, but in the meantime, are there things to look out for on these, particular to the hydrashift. I know basically what to look for as far as lathe key items, it's just the Hydrashift has me a little cautious.
Remove the large sheetmetal cover on the left side of the headstock and check the primary hydraulic pump and pulley. The pulley-to-shaft design is a weak spot, and the pulleys like to chew up the key on the shaft, and then start wobbling around. Eventually, this will damage the pulley and the hydraulic pump, for which there are no longer bolt-in replacements.

Remove the heavy headstock cover and the hydraulic shifting block inside the headstock, and check the gears and shaft end nuts, but don't move the forks in the shift block or slide the gears on the shafts if you can help it - reassembly will be much easier. The nuts like to loosen up if not installed correctly, and release the preload on the shaft bearings, or worse fall off and gum up the works. Also check for gear damage. The hydraulic block can be tricky to re-install.

Also check conditions inside the headstock - the cleanliness will tell you something about how well yours has been maintained. If you have a magnet on a stick, drag both sumps in the headstock and see what you find - hopefully nothing!

Check the small copper lubricating tubes inside the headstock, too, for pinching, damage, etc. The one that crosses under the hydraulic shift block to lube the middle spindle bearing tends to get pinched when re-installing the block.

Once you're familiar with the service manual, check the clutch adjustments (one for engagement, and one for brake). Clutch parts are rare, so best to keep yours in adjustment, without damaging the special retaining springs.

Check the shaft wobble and bearings of the large input pulley where the two belts from the primary pump drive the input shaft of the headstock. This shaft is short, and the bearings take the belt load, so they can loosen up, especially if the preload wasn't set right, and cause damage.

Hydrashifts use two hydraulic pumps. Removing the second one (the governor pump) on yours will require removal of the input pulley, but it's a good idea to take a look at it for wear and correct installation. It's easy to install one of the pumps out of index.
 
One more quick Q....will these lathes operate correctly when using a VFD? I want to be able to spin this up to 2000RPM, and from what I have found on the web, there were 3 different versions available, STD, high speed, and extra high speed achieving 3000 RPM, and I'm guessing that was just motor RPM changes, all the same headstock gearing. Could anyone confirm this?

Thanks
The high speed options used different bearings and some other parts inside the headstock, so it's not just a motor change. My 12-1/2" Hydrashift (an earlier version of your 1969-vintage 13") goes to 1,800RPM max with the standard bearings, etc.

Not sure about the VFD (mine is running on an RPC), but Hydrashifts did come with a two-speed motor option - mine has it. I'm not sure how that motor would behave with a VFD. The two-speed electric motor operates at two speed ranges, with a knob control on the front panel of the headstock and a contactor inside the electrical cabinet to change motor speeds. The green speed change dial on the front of the headstock has two sets of numbers around it, one for high speed range, one for low speed range.
 
The only thing I didn't like about the one I ran was, you had to slow down a bit when shifting. Not like a Pacemaker.

But it did a lot of work without complaining so I wouldn't feel bad about owning one.
By the book, the spindle should be stopped momentarily, to allow the hydraulic system to shift the gears inside the headstock without clashing. If the hydraulics are adjusted correctly, the governor pump should not allow the forks to shift unless the spindle is stopped, or very, very close to it.
 
By the book, the spindle should be stopped momentarily, to allow the hydraulic system to shift the gears inside the headstock without clashing. If the hydraulics are adjusted correctly, the governor pump should not allow the forks to shift unless the spindle is stopped, or very, very close to it.
In real life (tm) you have to actually STOP the spindle, then should count to three. If you just stop, then you're likely to get a ticket for failure to come to a compete halt. Also a graunching noise.

Not a fair comparison, a Pacemaker you can just declutch the spindle, then while it is floating you can shift. No stopping required. Not fair cuz a Pacemaker is Lord of the Shift. Monarch is not as good. Mori you have to stop, but it stops and starts so fast it doesn't seem like a hindrance.

LeBlond Regal with the little thumbwheel thingy down by the feed screw is the worst, imo. Graunch graunch graunch with every shift. It's more like count to five with a Regal. I think the earlier ones with the wheel on the headstock were better. Cincy is decent, just have to remember to whoa the spinny thing completely when shifting.
 
One more quick Q....will these lathes operate correctly when using a VFD? I want to be able to spin this up to 2000RPM, and from what I have found on the web, there were 3 different versions available, STD, high speed, and extra high speed achieving 3000 RPM, and I'm guessing that was just motor RPM changes, all the same headstock gearing. Could anyone confirm this?

Thanks

VFDs do not like to have anything between then and the motor and, except for very special cases, want to drive only one motor at the time.
This means that, if you want to use one or more VFDs, you essentially need to rewire the whole lathe moving interlock switches (if equipped with) from relays to the VFD control circuits, etc.
Perhaps, especially if the wiring is in good shape, it is better to use an ignorant RPC instead.

Paolo
 
Thank you thank you

Excellent info guys, thank you. Armed with all this information will be great, much appreciated. I forgot about the VFD wanting direct connection to the motor, okay, time to build my first RPC. We will just have to live with 1200 RPM as top limit. It's really for my son who likes turning small aluminum parts, of course I'll be using it as well as I have a heavy equipment earthworks business.

Heading out today to pick it up, will let you know when we return tomorrow as it's out of town. :)

Thanks!
 
When you say "acting up", what does that mean? Spindle won't turn? Gears won't shift? Something else?

Forgot to answer this one. I talked with him again yesterday and he said the spindle was slow to pickup speed, he had to ease in the clutch gently, kind of pulse it to get it to get moving, then once engaged it was fine. Started reading the service manual and I see there is a clutch adjustment, hoping that is all it is. There are several pages of adjustments though.

So this looks like a multiple disk wet clutch? Like in a motorbike? So if the wrong oil was put it I could see it being an issue. Just guessing. From what I have read, these clutches are expensive and hard to find.

Thoughts?

Cheers
 
The clutch/brake in your 13" Hydrashift is a double-ended, wet, Rockford Pullmore No. 2. There's a scan of the Rockford factory manual for the clutch/brake online somewhere.

Sort of like a motorcycle clutch, but no friction plates. All of the plates are steel, and there are no springs. Clutch pressure is applied by three over-center cams that rotate in a shipper sleeve (once you see the exploded diagram, the operation will make more sense).

Could be that the clutch side is out of adjustment, or maybe the brake side is not releasing. One or both could be the result of using the wrong oil, or maybe something else. Hopefully the clutch plates are not warped.
 
Well woo hoo it’s home. Arrived home a couple of hours ago with the lathe on the trailer gave it a little wipe down as it is it was raining on the way home and here are a few pictures of it. Came with some tooling what I believe is the taper unit, a few quick change pieces coolant pump and work light.

When we arrived at the machine shop there was a fellow busy cleaning it and wiping it down he told us it had been covered for a period of time it was nice and clean but somebody removed the tarp so he was getting rid of the excess residue it looks pretty clean certainly cleaner than our Voest. Came with a 3 jaw 8” Bison chuck as well, cool!

I haven’t powered it up yet as I am not sure how happy the Baldor VFD will be powering a switched load.

Anyway here are a few pictures look forward to hearing some comments thanks for all your help with the clutch slipping problem we will certainly be working on it this long weekend.

Cheers
 

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And forgot to mention we were parked in the shopping center parking lot and a fellow approached me and said I notice you have a lathe on the trailer, would you like another one we have to move soon and I have a large lathe that I need to get rid of, it will be next to free and has tons of tooling. We exchanged info and he is sending pics tonight. We already have acquired two lathes in less than a week, what’s wrong with three I say? :D
 
Looks like someone replaced the strainer with a spin-on Baldwin filter. That might work, but the primary pump doesn't like a lot of resistance on the input side. If you decide to change it back to the factory setup, the strainer is still available new, made by a company outside of Detroit called General Filters.
 
What a fine piece of equipment

Well I disconnected the motor from the panel in the back and connected my VFD to the motor directly and we have liftoff! The lathe is beautiful! What a smooth machine, completely different from our 17X84 Voest.

So it has a minor problem, hopefully an easy fix, here are the symptoms. So as thought earlier, it takes a while to spin up to speed in the higher ranges, low speeds no problem, but 884 and 1200 won't spin unless I help the chuck by hand, then it will in about 3-5 seconds catch and get going to proper RPM. I can hear the gears shifting when it comes to a stop, all that works, but the hydraulic pump sounds like it's complaining, when the lathe is stopped, the pump starts to whine, like it may be cavitating, or being starved of oil, possibly the spin on filter, but it looks like it was just changed. I happen to have the right one in stock, same as my Bobcat, so I could just try that. It also could be normal pump noise.

However, if I understand how this lathe works, the hydraulics are only used to shift gears, really has nothing to do with driving the spindle, so that to me says, clutch, as I think that is the only mechanical connection between the motor and spindle, and that is quite deep inside the machine.

Like I said, it runs fine at slower speeds, needs some help getting going in the top 2 speeds.

Your thoughts?

Cheers

PS, one other thing, I have the end cover off the headstock and the lever that is attached to the clutch, has a bar with a spring attached to it, that spring doesn't move at all nor does the little round bar piece ever touch the stop, I wonder if there is something external that may have slipped, or be out of adjustment in the linkage??

PPS upon further reading of the manual, I see the static pressure when the spindle is not turning is 250PSI, so the pump is working at idle, then when the spindle turns the pressure is 0, so no load, and no noise. I guess it's normal.
 
Well that was easy

But at the same time, was a real bugger to get the hydraulic block back on, man that thing is heavy...and as soon as I lifted it I knew I was hooped as all the shift forks moved and the gears moved and the selector knob turned....JEEEZ! :rolleyes5:

Anyway, I found the clutch, used a small set of right angle snap ring pliers to gently pries up the spring clip, moved it one notch, tried the clutch handle and it still felt loose so I moved it two teeth, and I could engage the clutch and get it to seat with a bit of effort. Put it all back together,with a few skinned knuckles and a few bad words leaked out, fired it up slowly to make sure no gears were going to clash and give the hydraulics and spool valves a chance to settle back to where they should be, selected 35 RPM and crossed my fingers, YEAH it works, checked all gears right up to 884 which is where it was slipping, engaged the clutch, and the VFD caughed up a lung and errored, I reset it, eased the clutch in until the spindle was up to speed then pulled it to click and it works. 100%! 1200 RPM too, but I have to engage the clutch slowly or the VFD overloads.

Now I am wondering if 2 teeth might have been too much, but now it behaves like the manual describes, stating to bump the clutch a few times to get it moving then engage. Can any damage be done to it if it is one tooth too tight? How hard is it for your hydrashift to engage?

Thanks everyone for the help with this, especially Elwood1968 who was just spot on in all of his comments, you obviously have had yours apart and are very familiar with these. :)

Now to go build an RPC and make some chips.

Cheers
 
yeah it takes em while to wind up to the higher rpms
that 8 or 10 inch chuck takes a little but to get spinning
and it's only 3 hp

the higher speeds are pretty much useless,
that's why you don't see many of the high speed ones.
 








 
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