Cinci Hyrdrashift with issues, should I buy it? Looking for a manual as well. - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilohertz View Post
    Well I disconnected the motor from the panel in the back and connected my VFD to the motor directly and we have liftoff! The lathe is beautiful! What a smooth machine, completely different from our 17X84 Voest.
    Congrats. Sounds like you have a good one.

    So it has a minor problem, hopefully an easy fix, here are the symptoms. So as thought earlier, it takes a while to spin up to speed in the higher ranges, low speeds no problem, but 884 and 1200 won't spin unless I help the chuck by hand, then it will in about 3-5 seconds catch and get going to proper RPM. I can hear the gears shifting when it comes to a stop, all that works, but the hydraulic pump sounds like it's complaining, when the lathe is stopped, the pump starts to whine, like it may be cavitating, or being starved of oil, possibly the spin on filter, but it looks like it was just changed. I happen to have the right one in stock, same as my Bobcat, so I could just try that. It also could be normal pump noise.
    Noises can be hard to diagnose, but I don't think the pump should whine. Your suspicion of starvation would be my first guess, too, especially with that filter in the loop. I recall reading at least one other Hydrashift owner here who experienced something similar, and the cause was a restrictive filter or plugged strainer in the supply line to the pump.

    PS, one other thing, I have the end cover off the headstock and the lever that is attached to the clutch, has a bar with a spring attached to it, that spring doesn't move at all nor does the little round bar piece ever touch the stop, I wonder if there is something external that may have slipped, or be out of adjustment in the linkage??
    Sounds like the lever-and-spring assembly that pushes the vertical clutch/brake operating rod downward? I believe the purpose of this lever and spring (which should have a long set screw through it to control the stop point) was to push back against the control rod when the operator was using the brake, to discourage leaving the brake engaged. When the brake is holding the input "D" shaft, nothing is turning inside the headstock, so the governor pump isn't pumping oil to lubricate the internals. But the motor is still turning, so the input shaft bearings and the clutch disks aren't getting any lubricant. Prolonged or repeated use of the brake will likely damage those bearings and/or the clutch side of the clutch/brake assembly.

    A lot of these Hydrashifts seem to have had the lever and spring removed at some point in their service. Mine is missing it, too. I'm guessing that the operators got tired of pushing back against that spring, and pulled the parts off when no one was watching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kilohertz View Post
    But at the same time, was a real bugger to get the hydraulic block back on, man that thing is heavy...and as soon as I lifted it I knew I was hooped as all the shift forks moved and the gears moved and the selector knob turned....JEEEZ!
    Yep. It's like trying to wrestle an octopus.

    Anyway, I found the clutch, used a small set of right angle snap ring pliers to gently pries up the spring clip, moved it one notch, tried the clutch handle and it still felt loose so I moved it two teeth, and I could engage the clutch and get it to seat with a bit of effort. Put it all back together,with a few skinned knuckles and a few bad words leaked out, fired it up slowly to make sure no gears were going to clash and give the hydraulics and spool valves a chance to settle back to where they should be, selected 35 RPM and crossed my fingers, YEAH it works, checked all gears right up to 884 which is where it was slipping, engaged the clutch, and the VFD caughed up a lung and errored, I reset it, eased the clutch in until the spindle was up to speed then pulled it to click and it works. 100%! 1200 RPM too, but I have to engage the clutch slowly or the VFD overloads.

    Now I am wondering if 2 teeth might have been too much, but now it behaves like the manual describes, stating to bump the clutch a few times to get it moving then engage. Can any damage be done to it if it is one tooth too tight? How hard is it for your hydrashift to engage?
    You could try backing the clutch off one tooth, but it sounds right to me. You should be able to feel the clutch cams go "over center" and lock in engagement.

  3. #23
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    So we ran it as I set it up, it worked 100%, my son made some chips practicing and trying all the gears and such, he was happy, the machine works 100%, what a cool lathe, I love it....now onto the RPC.

    Thanks to everyone who helped me get this working properly, guidance, manual etc.

    Cheers

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    Sorry, been out of town for a week. Sounds like your clutch is set perfectly. If it is too tight, it won't lock over center and too loose, it slips, as you know. Should just feel an increase in pressure as it locks over center. And yes, you will probably have to slip the clutch to get the work spun up at top speeds. Don't treat it like an auto clutch at lower speeds, though. Only slip it when you have a very heavy workpiece or something where you want to avoid a shock to the motor or vfd/converter. Slipping causes excess clutch wear, so slip only when you have to.

    They really are cool little machines! I was very leery of them when I first heard of them, but then I got a couple of big Cincy milling machines (no relation to the Cincy lathes) at the shop that had hydraulic shifting and loved them. Once I worked on one, I was pretty well hooked.

    Glad it is indeed as I expected and perfectly functional. Guess they had the wrong weight oil in it, and/or were trying to run it the wrong way. It seems just totally WRONG to select the speed you want with the machine running at speed, but that's exactly how you are supposed to do it. Most folks want to stop the spindle and select the next speed (which is exactly how you operate the Cincy milling machines and any other hydraulic shift machine I have ever operated), but that's a sure fire way to get the gears to clash on that lathe.

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    HI Mike,

    Thanks for the follow up, appreciate it, the manual has proved invaluable, provided me the info to feel comfortable enough to pull the lid and rip out it's guts, and get it fixed.

    We have cleaned out the shop, and realized neither my Bobcat or excavator will get deep enough into it to allow us to get it down to the second level......so now we are going to build a proper shop. Funny how that happens. Somewhere around 24x30' with a nice wood stove and big beer fridge.

    Spent the last few days building the RPC, got it done, works perfectly and are now ready to connect it. I am just going to nose the lathe into the door of the shop for now so my son can start playing with it. Should be ready to lay down the slab in a few weeks...get the shell done before winter...more later.

    Attached a few pics of the RPC...thanks Fitch. Still need to wire the momentary start/stop push buttons and connect the idler motor...

    Cheers
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_5507.jpg   img_5506.jpg  

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    Well hello again boys, a half year later.

    We finally have a usable shop, we built a nice 26x32 shop with scissor trusses and 10' walls. The beer fridge was the first thing to go in, and the lathe has been moved in and today I connected my newly built RPC, made a few tuning adjustments and away it went.

    But now, I have an issue with the Hydrashift. I haven't reread the manual yet, but it doesn't want to change gears all the time. Once it gets going, I can select the next gear I want, bring the spindle to a stop, wait for the CLUNK of the shift forks to engage, then I activate the clutch and nothing, I can hear something spinning up inside but it's like the spindle isn't attached to anything inside. I checked the oil level, it's fine, the pump still makes the whining sound when the spindle is stopped. The machine sat out under a tarp all winter, maybe condensation?? Maybe the filter is plugged and the pump can't develop sufficient pressure?? I also noticed that now the speed selector knob doesn't line up with the numbers at the top when it gets to a "notch", they are almost 2 o'clock position. If need be, I will pull the lid and check things out inside, but I don't know what could have happened to it just sitting there over winter.

    Anyway, just thought I would throw this out there to see if anyone else has experienced this. I'll dig into the manual in the next day or two as well. It will probably be something simple.

    Cheers

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    Perhaps moving it (twice?) did something, from stirring up sludge in the headstock sump that ended up plugging the strainer, to knocking one or more of the shift forks out of adjustment. Pulling the headstock lid and looking around inside is the first step. You'll also probably want to pull the hydraulic shifter block once you have the lid off, but it's more heavy and awkward than difficult. There are instructions in the manual to get the block back in correctly, but if you have questions, post away.

    There's a procedure in the manual for checking the hydraulic pressure and setting the relief valve with the lid off and the hydraulic shift block in place. You'll need an appropriate pressure gage as shown in the manual illustrations.

    The indexer for the speed selector knob is fairly simple: a gear with a spring-loaded detent bar, so not much can go wrong. Maybe the spring is broken, or the bar is stuck somehow.

    When the clutch is engaged and the spindle is turning, do you see oil flow at the sight glass on the front of the headstock? How about when the clutch is engaged, the speed selector knob is set to a speed other than neutral, but the spindle is still not turning?

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    Hi Elwood, thanks for chiming in again, you helped me a lot last fall to get this running well.

    When I moved it, it was with a forklift, gentle, just down my driveway over to the shop, lifted it with the forks under the bed, hopefully that was a safe way. When I last had the top cover off, the inside looked spotless, but perhaps the sump area has some stuff I couldn't see.

    I actually stayed up late last night and read the whole manual, so yes I will check the 2 pressures, 250psi at idle, near zero when clutch is engaged.

    Last year I had the whole hydraulic block off to adjust the clutch, and yes, it was a knuckle buster getting it back in correctly with all the forks in the correct position. The lathe worked great after that.

    I will have to look at the oil sight glass, I didn't look to see if oil was flowing. The spindle will engage about 50% of the time. If I start at say 48 RPM engage the clutch, if it doesn't start right away, I can spin the chuck by hand and then I see the spindle move a few degrees, then I engage the clutch again and it works, change speeds, stop spindle, re-engage and it works, spindle spins fine. It's just that sometimes the spindle doesn't turn, but I can hear the clutch shaft spin up. I think once I pull the lid, I will figure it out, it's like there is a gear not sliding all the way onto a shaft.

    Thanks again!

    PS just went out to give it a quick try before I head off to work and now I can't even get the motor to start properly. My 3 ph RPC with 5HP motor is working fine but there is way too much load, like the hydraulic pump is heavily loaded right from the get-go. It's cold out this morning and the oil is thicker, maybe there is another issue?? I would think there should be a start mode without the hydraulic pump being engaged?? After the third try I'm assuming the heaters in the contactors activated and now it's dead. Hopefully reset and be back to normal. More manual reading tonight.

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    If you don't see oil flowing in the sight glass when the spindle is (or should be) turning, then check that the oil line from the distribution block to the sight glass is routed correctly and not pinched before delving deeper into other potential causes. On my 12-1/2" machine, the oil lines were not great, and the sight glass one was out of the top hole of the backside of the sight glass, making it look like no lube oil was flowing.

    The primary hydraulic pump is directly belt fed from the drive motor, so it should be spinning and pumping as soon as the motor is running. No way to start the motor without the pump going too.

    I think we discussed this last year, but how is the condition of the primary pump driven pulley? Does it wobble on the pump shaft (you might have to loosen or remove the belt to check)? Out of plane with the drive pulley on the end of the motor shaft?

    I'm sure you've adjusted the clutch and brake when you were into the headstock last, but might be good to check them again when you have the cover off.

    Any strange or new noises?

    The heaters would be my first suspicion as well. Have you checked them for the correct ratings? Almost all of the machines in my shop came from places running 440v 3ph, but I only have 220v 3ph available, so every heater had to be changed if I didn't want machines shutting down after only moderate loading.

    What oil is in the headstock?

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    Thank you again for the reply Elwood, no strange new noises or anything like that. It looks like the original motor and it's 208 3 phase but my RPC is 230 3 phase. The pulley on the pump has a small amount of play, but it's not wobbling and it looks to be in OK condition. As I mentioned earlier it was working perfectly last fall when the weather was warm and it sat through the winter under a tarp and blanket and it's just been moved gently with the forklift. I may have a small issue with my phase converter, as I realized I am just feeding the lathe with 14 gauge wire and that could be part of the start problem. What I could try to illuminate that issue is reconnect my Baldor three phase VFD directly to the motor and see if everything returns to normal.
    I have been busy at work for the last few days and have not had a chance to get back to it yet, but certainly will this weekend or when the weather warms up and the oil gets a little bit thinner. I don't know what oil is in it I topped it up with AW32 last fall. I have been reading common issues with the Hydro shift for the last few days and the one thing I have not done yet is check or change the main oil filter or the screen ahead of the governor pump, but again I wonder, what could have changed by itself?

    I'm at work now typing this on my phone sitting on my excavator so I should get back to work. 😀

    More later.

    Cheers

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    Default Found the problem, wasn't expecting this

    Well I got home early today and replaced all the wiring in my RPC, no difference, still won't start the motor, really heavy load. So I connected my VFD right to the motor and brought it up slowly and it worked fine, full RPM and about 6A draw. I rotated the speed selector and engaged the clutch, nothing, went to 177 and heard the CLUNK of forks moving and shazam it works, changed speeds to 2xx and it worked, but was WAY too fast for being 2xx RPM, so I changed it to 35 and it worked, then to 77 or thereabouts and it didn't work, no spindle movement. I did notice however that oil was flowing past the sight glass, good sign. So I decided it was time to look under the hood, and I'm glad I did when I did, before anything got smoked....the vertical shift fork is broken and has fallen off the shaft spool and is laying across the output shaft, it broke right near the apex of the yoke. Well DAMN, how did that happen? Anyway, it may have been cracked by the PO or maybe I did something stupid, but I didn't hear anything weird in the few minutes that I had it powered up in the last 2 days.

    Now I need to pull the hydraulic block off and find the missing piece and weld it back together (or braze) any recommendations on this repair?

    Now this explains the speed indicator being off, and the heavy hydraulic load on the motor as the shift spool was just floating and had no way to land where it should.

    Won't have time until Sunday now to fix it as I have to work for the next 2 days.

    Thoughts on repairing that fork? I don't want to mess it up. MIG or Braze, or ?? which would be safest?

    Thanks!

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    Glad you found it in time to prevent additional damage.

    By "vertical shift fork" do you mean the fork that moves the Pullmore clutch hub (aka "slipper sleeve") left (to engage the clutch) or right (to engage the brake)? There's a repair on here (search for "Hydrashift broken shift fork") that discusses a similar repair to one of the shifting forks. For me, I'd start by pinning the two pieces together and brazing it if possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood1968 View Post
    Glad you found it in time to prevent additional damage.

    By "vertical shift fork" do you mean the fork that moves the Pullmore clutch hub (aka "slipper sleeve") left (to engage the clutch) or right (to engage the brake)? There's a repair on here (search for "Hydrashift broken shift fork") that discusses a similar repair to one of the shifting forks. For me, I'd start by pinning the two pieces together and brazing it if possible.
    Okay, I'll search that thread, thanks.

    The fork that broke is on the front spool, closest to the front of the machine and the one that is over the spindle shaft. It's a straight fork with no offset like the other 2. Not sure if it is supposed to clamp in that split block or just sit in a slot. I'll have to look at my pictures from when I took the hydraulic block off last year to adjust the clutch.

    Cheers

    PS I went out and fished out the big piece of the fork, and I now see that it is part of the split block that attaches to the spool, so it broke off the shaft and also broke one ear on the fork, I get to make 2 welds, oh yeah.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_6748.jpg  

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    I pulled the hydraulic block off tonight and was again impressed by how well built this machine is. Everything is machined nicely and all the gears look perfect, pretty neat design.

    And I want to correct a previous post, I didn't add AW32 to this lathe, it was my little Hercus 260, this lathe seems to have gear oil, or something smelly in it, like 80/90, not sure but it has the consistency of pancake syrup. Whatever it is the interior is spotless, no sludge in the bottom, I can see right to the bottom area, the governor screen looks clean too. I fished out the broken ear of the fork, and then looked to see what the fork shifts and found the collar it rides on is a bit galled, not too worried about it as the fork is cast iron. The fork has a few little bumps from the break which caused the galling and I will polish those out before installation. I also found out that the speed wheel was in fact correct, I thought the numbers at the top were the speed but it turns out there is a mark at about 2 o'clock that indicates the speed, but's pretty much gone on my machine, I'll fix that also.

    So once I figure out the best method to repair the fork, I will get her all back together and try my new RPC again. Still don't know what caused this, but will be extra careful when changing speeds.

    More later.

    Cheers
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_6768.jpg   img_6766.jpg  

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    When I first got my Hydashift, the little yellow pointer at the two-o'clock position to the speed selection dial was missing, and the mounting hole in the headstock was partially filled with oil and swarf, so it wasn't obvious that something was gone. I too spent some time trying to figure out why the spindle speeds didn't match the number on top of the dial.

    The oil in your headstock might be too heavy? The manual lists a wide selection of manufacturers' trade names of acceptable oils, but I think most people are using Mobil DTE Light, which is an ISO 32 viscosity.

    Nice that the inside of your headstock was so clean. Hopefully that means someone maintained the machine. Mine was filthy on the inside when I got it, and I've now finished replacing every bearing - including all three spindle bearings - inside the headstock as a result of a long period of no maintenance.

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    Default My first time welding cast iron

    Here is the fork, all welded and smoothed out, hopefully will work for years to come, it was my first time welding cast. Used Arctec Supercast 90, DC welder set for 80A. Seemed to flow nicely. We'll see.

    I'll get it back together in the next few days.

    I looked through the manual for synchronization procedure but couldn't find anything about positions of the shift forks and speed selector when reassembling the hydraulic block. I measured the position of the fork on the shaft as the spool was too hard to score a mark, but would like a little more definitive procedure...I don't want to have another broken fork on power up.

    Anyone have a procedure for reassembling the block and positioning the forks on the spool shafts?

    Thanks
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    I had the hydraulic block and forks completely disassembled on my Hydrashift. When I put it back together, I spent some time measuring the throws of each gear set, and transferring those measurements to the forks to get approximate positions, but I left the fork pinch screws slightly loose on the shafts when I put the hydraulic block back into the headstock. Then I manually cycled each fork/gearset pair through its full range of motion, and was able to determine the position of each fork on its respective shaft so that the gears were fully engaged and disengaged where needed. Be especially careful with the middle fork, as it will pinch the lube line to the middle spindle bearing if it shifts too far to the left. Then I put some Loctite on the clamp screws and cinched everything up tight.

    Before putting the headstock cover on, I manually shifted the forks so that the gearing was in neutral.

    The manual doesn't include any guidelines on setting the forks, but it does show how to align the speed selector knob with the rotary control valve in the hydraulic block. My copy of the manual includes this warning on p. 23:

    "IMPORTANT: When replacing dial assembly, be sure witness mark on valve spool detent is at bottom dead center and selector dial indicates the slowest spindle speed."

    Remember that the slowest spindle speed on the selector dial should be at about 2 o-clock, not straight up.

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    Default It's alive, It's alive!

    So I followed your directions Elwood1968 and reassembled the machine, everything fit perfectly, I adjusted the one fork that I removed, got it so that it moved the gear to the center of the throw so that each gear engaged properly, put all the gears in a neutral position, set the dial speed to N, crossed my fingers and powered it up, it went clunk, like it wasn't happy with the position of the gears I chose, I pulled the lid, nothing broken, so assume it just found it's own neutral position, I selected 35 RPM and slowly engaged the clutch and away it went. Went through all the gears and everything shifted perfectly. The pump was still whining so I pulled the cover and checked the hydraulic pressure per the manual. Well SHXT! Toasted my nice stainless glycerin filled diesel compression tester gauge, which went to 500 PSI. The damned pressure pinned the needle hard past 500 PSI, probably about 700 by the intensity of the motion. So I adjust the pressure down to 250, which as it turns out was only 150 as the needle on my gauge rotated on the center pin. Found another gauge and set the pressure to 250, and found that when running dropped to 0 which the manual says is normal, the pump whining stopped and the current draw on the VFD went from 6.2A down to 4.7A. Yikes !! The pressure was way off.

    So it could be 2 things I believe, wrong oil (too heavy), or the regulator just set wrong.

    I looked for a strainer to replace the filter but couldn't find one locally so I'll go online and get one, then I will replace the oil with Mobil DTE ISO 32, but for now it is working great.

    Thanks everyone for your help, it's greatly appreciated.

    I'm one happy camper!

    Cheers
    Last edited by kilohertz; 06-15-2019 at 09:07 AM.

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    Congrats on getting the old lathe running again.

    Seven hundred PSI!!! I'm surprised the pump and fittings tolerated that pressure. That's a lot more than the rated maximum pressure according to an old Tuthill catalog I have.

    And yes, the pressure should drop to zero when the "B" shaft stops spinning the governor pump, i.e. you can pre-select the next spindle speed, and it won't shift until the spindle stops. If it doesn't go to zero, the hydraulic block shouldn't allow the gears to shift.

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