Cincinnati 1a spindle issues

Hello all, trying to reassemble a previously disassembled head. No apparent crash damage,but the quill is extremely tight in its bore. I realize that it should be a close fit but I am pretty sure it should be a sliding rather tan a light press. I have not run a bore gauge through it yet to determine if it is egged, I have checked carefully for any burrs of which there are none, and I am considering my next course of action. Any advice would be appreciated. I am reasonably competent in old iron repair,having worked on everything from the high tech to the neanderthalithic in the past 30years or so, but I am always grateful for any help and knowledge. Thanks, Jim

Do you have a picture of the head ?

Just to be clear, this machine is a Toolmaster 1-A, i.e. without power down/up feed to the quill?

Hi Elwood,I forgot about the difference in types. It must be a 1b, although it is missing the upper drive gear. Thanks, jim

Did you remove the spindle quill lock/clamp before trying to reassemble?

Mike

Mike, I don’t have a way of taking a picture easily. Other mike, yes, the lock is not a factor. The quill is definitely too tight in its bore.thanks,Jim

jmm03 said:

Hi Elwood,I forgot about the difference in types. It must be a 1b, although it is missing the upper drive gear. Thanks, jim

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Can you post your serial number? Do you have the correct Service Manual and Parts List Catalog for your machine (M-1890 for the early machines, M-2190 or M-2318 for the later ones) ? Without photos, diagnosing the problem will be more difficult, but with a common parts catalog to refer to, we can identify what parts don't fit and what parts are missing.

Hi Elwood, it is not really an issue of parts missing, the quill in its bore is too tight and I need to loosen it up so that it will move up and down. Right now I cannot move it using the handle. Would careful use of a ball hone be an acceptable method of loosening it? Serial number is where on these? I do have access to the manual and parts list,but it is on the computer rather than hard copy. Thanks, Jim

jmm03 said:

Hi Elwood, it is not really an issue of parts missing, the quill in its bore is too tight and I need to loosen it up so that it will move up and down. Right now I cannot move it using the handle. Would careful use of a ball hone be an acceptable method of loosening it? Serial number is where on these? I do have access to the manual and parts list,but it is on the computer rather than hard copy. Thanks, Jim

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The serial number will be stamped on the face of the column, at the top of the machined dovetail face that the knee slides up and down on. Should look something like this (the stamped serial number circled in red):



If it were my machine, I'd do some more measuring and investigating before I took a ball hone to it (and given the shape of the quill bore in the housing, a ball hone is going to beat the corners of the bore where it intersects with the bore for the worm shaft, so that might not be a good idea regardless). I'm assuming that it worked fine for many years after it left the Cincinnati factory, so what has changed? Normal use and wear would make the quill fit loosen up, not tighten.

Here is page 30 from manual M-1890 (early Toolmasters), showing the breakdown of the 1-B head. I'm not sure of the level of disassembly of the head you have in hand, but given the problem you're experiencing, and the importance of the quill fit, I'd want to start with a completely stripped head (i.e. the quill lock assembly removed from the head, no depth stop [121 and 122], no key [143], etc.) and check on the fit of the sleeve (145) in the housing (120).



I mentioned the "parts missing" because you wrote something about missing the upper gear on the quill power feed?

Hi Elwood,serial number is 6J1V5D-700 as far as I can see. The quill was impossible to move ever since my son in law obtained the mill. The whole head is stripped at this time and well cleaned but the entire quill and spindle assembly is still together, the quill housing,145,will not slide down into the head without help,meaning the use of a dead blow hammer and block. I will mike the housing, but it appears unmarred, as does the bore of the head. I appreciate your help. Thanks, Jim

You've got an early Toolmaster like mine, same year 1956, but number 700 of that year's production.

Do you have a copy of service and parts manual M-1890 for the early Toolmasters? Removal of the 1-B drive spindle is described beginning on page 13, and installation is generally the reverse of the removal procedure. I would start by reviewing the disassembly procedure in the manual to make certain that each step has been completed, and then try re-assembly.

Note that the sleeve (145) is removed and inserted from the bottom of the head casting. You mentioned trying to slide the sleeve down into the head.

So when your son-in-law purchased this Toolmaster, the quill was "stuck" in the head casting? Did the spindle run okay otherwise?

I spun the head around so that I could put the quill in from above, but it is going in the correct way. I only heard it run once but it sounded ok at that time. I did not feel it for heat, but he has never run it very long anyway. I believe he has the correct service manual, but since I don’t have access to a computer at this time I can’t be positive. It sure would make things easier... just to verify, shouldn’t the quill slide into the head with hand pressure alone? Jim

I think I'd borrow a bore gage and check the head ID for roundness and taper, then inspect the quill OD for same.

IDK how much clearance to expect (.001 inch???) but you should be able locate any interference.

Mike

jmm03 said:

I spun the head around so that I could put the quill in from above, but it is going in the correct way. I only heard it run once but it sounded ok at that time. I did not feel it for heat, but he has never run it very long anyway. I believe he has the correct service manual, but since I don’t have access to a computer at this time I can’t be positive. It sure would make things easier... just to verify, shouldn’t the quill slide into the head with hand pressure alone? Jim

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Right, if the quill isn't a slip fit into the head casting, then it won't be able to slide up and down when in normal use.

Either there are part(s) in the way (something not removed during disassembly?), or a burr or some grit. Does the OD of the quill or the ID of casting bore show any evidence of scoring?

Just to be clear on what is happening, when you try to insert the quill into the bottom of the head casting, how far in will the quill go before it binds? Will it even start in the bore?

Since you don't know the history of this machine, don't overlook the possibility that someone has been into it before and buggered things up. For example, I'd verify that the parts on hand are the correct ones. Cincinnati was very diligent about stamping their part numbers on almost every part, so you should be able to check that the parts in hand match the catalog. The factory made some changes to these machines over the many years of production, and it's not impossible that someone tried to make later parts work in an earlier machine. I don't know the changes (if any) within the 1-B head over the years, but I have an early 1-B with the power feed on the X-axis, and when I opened up the power feed gearbox to make some repairs, I discovered that some of the parts were from a later machine, so it's not unheard of.

I know you don't have pics, but if there's any way to post them (or email them to me and I'll post them) or get someone to take some pics for you, those would be really helpful.