Cincinnati 2L Spindle Bearings
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  1. #1
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    Default Cincinnati 2L Spindle Bearings

    Machine in question is a Cincinnati 2L horizontal mill with the universal table and NMTB 50 taper spindle, SR# 9A2U1D-45 (guessing that makes it a 1945). Still runs well, but the front spindle bearings have a faint "crunch" to them when it spins. I haven't opened it up yet but I imagine some trash got into them and did some damage to the rollers or kept them from getting oil. So I'm sure they may cost an arm and a leg, but I'm looking for new front spindle bearings.

    Haven't found much in my search's, but has anyone replaced the spindle bearings on one of these before? I know from the manual that they are Timken tapered roller bearings but all I have is the Cincinnati number. I'm looking for the Timken number so I can order some to have on hand when I take it appart. I know there are 2 matching bearing sets in the front. I'd also be interested in the bearing dimensions so If needed I can cross reference to other bearing makes.

    The Cincinnati numbers are 57891 for the cup, and 57231 for thee cone. and I assume one of those includes the rollers themselves.

    Worse case, I'll just have to pull it apart and let it sit while I source them, but I've got enough projects in that mode as it is.

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    The 1940 #5 High Power I had apart had Class 0 Precision and custom face notched cone races. Sounds like about $1500 each these days

    A 1D serial means 1936

    Per 1M parts and service from 1930
    57891 is Timken 592-B - these cups are FLANGED
    57231 is Timken 598-W

    Here is link to Pub

    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/5019.pdf

    Any decent machine tool Timken bearing for a spindle will be at a minimum Class 0 Precision

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    That's what I'm after! You're my hero John!

    Tapered roller bearing 598W-592B-TIMKEN - 92.8x152.4x82.55 mm | 123Bearing

    Not all that pricy really!

    So this mill is actually a 1936? Interesting.

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    Default C Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by M.B. Naegle View Post
    That's what I'm after! You're my hero John!

    Tapered roller bearing 598W-592B-TIMKEN - 92.8x152.4x82.55 mm | 123Bearing

    Not all that pricy really!

    So this mill is actually a 1936? Interesting.

    On page 5 of your on line manual. There is a slinger cap around the spindle. take that off and see how much of the bearing you can see. You may be able to do some cleaning. Check your end play and how much wear is in spindle. I 'm not sure if this older machine has the little 90 degree keeper on the inter race of the cone bearing. A lot of Cincinnati machine had that later on. This is to keep the inter race from spinining on the shaft. You may be avle to adjust the bearings. Page 5 drawing. If the bearing has the little keeper, you will have to grind the knotch in the inter race of the bearing.

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    Hopefully adjusting the back-lash will help, but the "crunch" I hear has me worried. I confirmed the bearings were the source with a stethoscope. This mill was in a warehouse with a bad roof for a few years and I know some water got on the table and down into the base. I don't think it made it into the head stock though as it ran for a couple years without issue before the bearing problem developed. As long as it's limited to the bearings and not the spindle or bearing seats, I'm ok.

    At some point, I want to do a thorough rebuild re-scraping the ways and fixing any worn parts. I plan to move this mill into my garage at home, but the overhaul will have to wait until a few other projects are out of the way.

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    You sure are not pricing Class 0 Precision bearings. The 97 buck jobs are for tractor axles and the like

    Thumbnails from Timken Engineering on classes. Note a Class 0 has but 10% of the assembled runout of the class 2 gear box bearing you priced


    Quote Originally Posted by M.B. Naegle View Post
    That's what I'm after! You're my hero John!

    Tapered roller bearing 598W-592B-TIMKEN - 92.8x152.4x82.55 mm | 123Bearing

    Not all that pricy really!

    So this mill is actually a 1936? Interesting.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails assembled-runout.jpg   assembeld-runout-crop.jpg  

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    Ah, yes. I'll keep looking.

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    M.B., sir
    I also have a 2L.. Just for your info.. they stopped making them before WW2 and concentrated on the ML line as part of 'war rationalization'. Also it's a splash type oiling system so pay attention to slingers when and if you 'go deep' into the guts of the thing.. May want to check the end play as C Mike suggested.
    AND just for my own curiosity could you see if the knee column ( the one that holds the screw that lifts the knee ) has an oil/grease fitting ?
    Hope this helps
    Stay safe
    Calvin B

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    Quote Originally Posted by calvin b View Post
    M.B., sir
    I also have a 2L.. Just for your info.. they stopped making them before WW2 and concentrated on the ML line as part of 'war rationalization'. Also it's a splash type oiling system so pay attention to slingers when and if you 'go deep' into the guts of the thing.. May want to check the end play as C Mike suggested.
    AND just for my own curiosity could you see if the knee column ( the one that holds the screw that lifts the knee ) has an oil/grease fitting ?
    Hope this helps
    Stay safe
    Calvin B
    If those slingers didn't do their job, that could be the issue with the bearings too.

    I'll have to check where it is exactly. I have the original manual (1947 edition) which does reference filling the vertical screw tube with a grease gun via a grease fitting, but they say to use Hydraulic Slideway Oil (C.M.M. Co. No. P53, Viscosity 155-165 SSU at 100 degrees F), which I found to be Medium Weight Way oil like Vactra #2.

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    M.B., Sir
    Hey thanks for looking in advance.. Just for your info p-53 = vactra #1 or an ISO 32 way oil. Vactra #2 = ISO 68 way oil.. Gear box should have P-31 which equals DTE medium (circulating oil ). AND yes I run Mobil products in my machines so that's why I have all the oil referenced as I do.. I really thought the vactra #1 in the pump oilers was going to be to light but it works far better than the #2 that I initially filled them with.
    Just a bit of a story here.. I called MAG IS. when I got my machine, they were the company, who, at the time had the rights to the old ciincinati corp, to get a manual. I told the person who answered the phone that I needed info on a 2L and there was stunned silence.. Then some hushed voices and I heard someone say "get Charlie " ( not his real name as my memory lapses as I age). SO this really nice guy get's on the phone and he knew all about the older antique machines and was a fountain of knowledge. He said the splash lube systems designed in the 1930's where designed for lighter oil than the 'next gen' machines. ( the ones with oil pumps ) He said that the mid to late 30's machines were really well made as the owner of the company was loathe to let any of his skilled help go and he tried to keep them on by building machines for future sale..
    Just some trivia for ya.
    Hope this helps
    Stay safe
    Calvin B

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    Cincinnati was own by one family until 1999, well over 100 years. The many people who worked there have 35 to 50 years of service. They were always paid well enought to never have a union. They were pace setters for wages for a long time. One of my buddies just retired with 44 years. sorry you didn't remember the person you talked too. I may have known him. The Fives own them now, I think they are the third or forth owners of the Cincinnati Milacron ( Cincinnati Machine ). Right now, the spare parts can be built and some are in stock. Be ready for the price, they dare you to buy it.

    Regrds,
    Mike

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    Hello Mike,
    Once again the pencil is mightier than the memory ! I have the name 'Tom Harvey' written in the notes section of my manual and that is whom I spoke with.. A great and knowledgeable man, very generous with his accumulated knowledge. I hope he is enjoying his retirement in good health.
    Stay safe
    Calvin B

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    Yes I knew Tom. He has bee gone about four or fives years ago. The person i said that just retired with 44 years was the second one who took Tom's place. So the number three person behind Tom is Chris. Just about everyone I knew is about gone.

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    I have pulled a couple of those spindles out by putting a large ring and putting it on the column and putting a 1" threaded rob thought the spindle and using that to pull it out. I would suggest you call Barker Bearing and see if they have sets of bearings and yes class 0 would be best. Baker Bearing: Ball Bearing Supplier Baker Bearing Company

    Baker Bearing buys lots of bearings from bankrupt companies and they would probably have sets. They only sell wholesale to bearing houses. Your company might qualify to buy direct as you build machines or you probably have a bearing house you use. Also Miniature Bearing Ball Bearing Distributor - Precision Ball Bearings | MMB Bearings has hard to find bearings.

    There are also people who rebuild bearings. Rich

    Another thing is Cinc. Has detailed instructions in their manuals. Oh if you need some help, maybe you can wait until spring when I drive to Navasota :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmike View Post
    Yes I knew Tom. He has bee gone about four or fives years ago. The person i said that just retired with 44 years was the second one who took Tom's place. So the number three person behind Tom is Chris. Just about everyone I knew is about gone.
    Is it just me, or are posts like this really poignant? It's sure a reminder of how fast time passes by.

    Both old employees, and old employers - they don't last forever...

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    Just an update: I'm still hunting for these bearings.

    I talked to Timken and they said that the Class 0 bearings have been out of production for years. The rep. I spoke with recommended that if I couldn't find old stock anywhere, spindle shops will map the run-out of the bearing and the shaft and assemble them to average the 2 out, and that I might get better results from using the lower class bearings if I followed the same procedure.

    So far Motion Ind., Bearings Inc. in Germantown WI, and Baker Bearing in Portland OR are a no-go.

    Timken did say that rebuilding the bearings to Class 0 specs. wouldn't be possible. It's looking like new class 2 or 3 will be the only option right now.

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    Bearings Inc. got back to me and they were able to find class 0 bearings!.... for $1197.00 per set. That would be $2384.00 to replace the front bearings.

    Not that it's not worth it, but that's a lot of investment for a sentimental machine. I do plan on giving this machine a "full" rebuild, re-scraping the ways eventually. I'm waiting to hear back what class 2 bearings will run, which are still considered "precision". I need to pull out my manual and look up what the original allowable spindle run-out on this machine was.

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    Later years they put a 90 degree keeper on the inner bearing cup of the second bearing from the nose of the spindle, so the cup would not spin. Yours probably doesn't have it.


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