cincinnati toolmaster 1d broken
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  1. #1
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    Default cincinnati toolmaster 1d broken

    i bought a broken toolmaster 1d that now im fixxing up.
    problem #1:the high, neutral, low gear change on the left side is jammed in high.
    the motor spins and works fine just wont shift.
    unless anyone has some brilliant advice, im just slowly taking the head apart untel i get down into the gear box.


    problem #2 for what ever reason someone bypassed all the electrical, and now im trying to rebuild it.
    does anyone have the wiring diagram for the electrical block on the back?

    does anyone have a 1-d manual is a pdf or something?

    it came with a kwik switch 200, and i dont really see any advantage to it over the nmtb40. am i wrong?

    i'm also looking for a er32 collet chuck and a set of collets- who are the name brands?

    Thanks everyone.
    Daniel

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    Regarding the electrical -- it could be that the previous owner powered it with a VFD (maybe because the speed shifter was dead ) and therefore bypassed all the base-mounted circuitry in favor of a direct motor connection... That may be a good solution for you, if you don't have 3-phase power handy. (I'm making a wild assumption it's 3-phase...) Generally, VFDs are wired this way, because they don't like loads being switched to and from their outputs.

    Power table feeds, coolant pump, and reversing all come from the electric bay in the base.

    KS-200 stuff is handy, if you don't mind the reduced capability vs. NMTB 40 stuff. If you want to convert it to cash to finance other stuff, I'd like to be first in line.

    I think I have a pdf manual, which I can search for over the weekend. If you Google a bit, you may find one online before that, though. The exploded parts diagrams will help in your mechanical troubleshooting.

    Chip

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    i actually do have 3 phase... thankfully. i'm guessing a VFD is just a phase generator?

    is the ks200 really any faster then the nmtb40? seams like basically there the same just the nmtb40 you have to turn a few more times.
    hows the collet system for the ks200 how does it compare to the er collet system.

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    KS200 is five seconds, max, to change out a tool. 40-taper without a power drawbar is, well, not Kwik. (But if you don't want yours...)

    VFD is Variable Frequency Drive (I'm sure someone will jump in if I got the acronym wrong...) that not only generates 3 phase out of single phase (if you buy the right VFD) but provides a wide array of motor control options, including speed ramping up and down, braking, reversing, rpm display and transitions, conveniently-extended remote control, etc. All sorts of motor dynamic goodness. It's usually wired into the spindle motor in order to isolate those dynamics to that motor, rather than the table, knee, or pump motors. They are also commonly available in 3-phase to 3-phase versions, skipping the phase conversion function.

    Can't chime in on your collet question, though.

    Chip

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    Dear Yetiking,
    I'm sure you have been following the thread on my "Toolmaster Electrical Problem". You can get a drawing of the electrical panel #G-176290 from the manual section of this site. The size of the original was 24 x 36 and comes out of my printer at 8.5 x 11, very small. You also have to pay to join the site that has the drawing,but they do offer a 7 day trial. Plus they do have the some other Toolmaster items that oliverdude had originally posted.
    I had a broken roll pin in the quill feed gear box on my machine and I was able to take the top of the head off to fix it. I think there were 4-bolts that held the upper head on and once those were out you raise that part of the head up off the spline and then you can get to the rest of the machine. Mine had trouble in quill feed gear box.
    How is the KS-200 system held in your spindle, is there an adaptor that goes from 40 taper to kwik switch. I would also like to see a photo of it and who makes it. I used the Kwik-Switch system on a series 2 Bridgeport and didn't run the machine long enough to form much opinion. It seemed that I could not get the tool tight in the spindle, but it was tight and it didn't fallout.

    Rick Hinsen

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    Is the toolmaster a true nmtb40 or is it the modified 40 (stub length) used in the cincinatti monoset?

    My brother (olivermachinenut) has a contourmaster (3D tracer version of that machine) that uses the monoset type collet, and they are not easy to find and they are not cheap. His has several #40 taper tools that were modified to fit his machine when he got it. You may have the same situation - someone modified a #40 to KS200 tool holder to fit the toolmaster rather than buy the pricy monoset collets.

    The KS200 is a nice system, but no where near a rigid or versitile as a true #40 taper.
    If you have the true #40 taper and limited KS200 tooling came with the machine you have a decision to make. If your fully tooled in KS200, try it out and see how you like it.

    #40 tapers are available for almost any tool configuration known and in a wide variety of quaities and prices. It has been used longer than most of us have been alive. Its one of the most popular tapers today. Modified versions of the basic tool holder are used on CNC mills with lock buttons instead of draw bar threads. Tool changes will take longer. Lots of second hand tooling is available for the small shop.

    KS200 is easy to work with, but lacks the rigity and the tooling assortment is more limited.
    Second hand tooling is suspect because the little ears ware out and then the taper does not lock up tightly.

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    Rhinsen,

    I have a mill that came with a #40 to quck switch 300 tooling adaptor.
    I suspect the same device would be avalable in a #200 as well.
    I installs like any other #40 tool and is held in by the drawbar.
    You can easily eject the entire adaptor and run #40 any time you want, then jump back to quick switch.



    Sorry I am still useing it and its not for sale.

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    Rick,
    You shouldn't have to pay/join to download what I've posted! I downloaded from scribd.com long before I ever joined and have never paid anything. I really can't tell for sure because even if I'm logged out it still knows who I am. I you do have to pay now, let me know. Posting FREE information for other people was the whole point of uploading to that site.

    yetiking,
    Here is a link.

    electrical diagram

    There should be a download button in the lower right corner of the window that you can click. E-mail me if you can't download it and I'll send it by e-mail. To e-mail me just click on my user name at the top of this message and click "send email to oliverdude".


    On edit, just e-mail me if you don't have an account at scribd.com. I tried downloading a different way and found out that you do have to pay now. You sure didn't when I started posting on there.

    Anyone know a site where I can post the manuals where they will be FREE to download? Let me know and my files will be moved shortly.

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    I had a Toolmaster with the 40 Taper spindle that I installed one of those air powered Drawbar motors on. I could remove a tool and install a new tool in 10 seconds with that setup and never had a problem with it. At one time I had that spindle mounted on a 40 inch table travel CNC Boston Digital Milling Machine... Then when I was offered a lot of money for the Boston Dig Mill, I sold it and mounted the spindle back on the mill it came from.

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    Rick- as requested- its a 40 to ks200 adapter made by universal, who knows if you can find them.
    it says 30 kwik switch 40mm- though i looked up the dimensions and im pretty sure its a ks200- can some one confirm?


    ahall- luckily its a nmtb40, i was careful to avoid the monoset

    Thanks oliverdude for the link and email- much appreciated

    i guess thats 1 and 2 kinda sorted out.
    now one to number 3
    the X powerfeed on the table is just shredded- the gears are totally ruined- im guessing im never going to see parts for this again, so im better off getting gears made for but if anyone has any ideas on were to get parts that would be great.

    what kind of oil do you use? i have a list from a manual for the 1a-1c but its from 1956.... so its not all that useful. i just through some a&e rust inhibiting hydraulic oil in there because it was the closed i could find, does that work?

    Thanks for the help
    Daniel
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails photo-1.jpg   photo-2.jpg   photo-3.jpg  

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    Oliverdude,
    Thats why I sent you an E-Mail for a download of the Electrical drawing. They wanted $59.00 a year,or $9.00 a month to get stuff from them. I didn't get to view the whole site, but from what I could see they had the toolmaster stuff and your wellsaw then lots of sewing stuff. They did post a 7-day free trial, but I don't think so. I joined just so I could get that drawing.

    Yetiking,
    I have the monoset tooling with my toolmaster, it is a holder just like your universal 40 taper holder that takes the monoset collets. You just unscrew the holder and pop in any 40 taper tool holder.

    Rick Hinsen

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    Yetiking,
    About # 3 Damn that's a shame. Have you taken the gear box apart yet? Please post lots of photos of that. That must have ben one heck of a wreck to bust the gears up. There are several places to get parts for Cincinati stuff. I don't know if they will have stuff for the toolmaster, please post on here or send me an e-mail if they carry parts for them. Check some of the posts on here for those companies.

    Rick Hinsen

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    Rick,
    Sorry you had to join to download the wiring diagram. I wish you would have mentioned the having to pay part in the e-mail and I would have sent it to you that way. I thought you were just having trouble finding it on there. As soon as I find another host for my information that provides free downloads, I will be moving all my stuff there. As I mentioned in an e-mail to another forum member that information was given to me or came with a machine I bought. I paid to have some it scanned and put in PDF format, without asking for any compensation, so other people could download it for free. FREE being a key word here. Before this happens, if anyone needs a copy of something I have on scribd.com, feel free to e-mail me.

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    I'm considering modern (manual) x and y table motors for my 1D. I'd let my x table drive go for funds toward that goal. I believe it has one speed that's not working, but not due to gear teeth-shedding. (been awhile since I looked inside... ) PM me if that interests you.

    I'm also interested in the power drawbar mod... Gary E., if you could start a new thread with your recollections, parts, or even pix, that would be great.
    Did you have to remove the spindle interlock?

    I'll verify markings on my KS200 master toolholder tonight,if nobody beats me to it.

    Chip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip Chester View Post
    I'm considering modern (manual) x and y table motors for my 1D. I'd let my x table drive go for funds toward that goal. I believe it has one speed that's not working, but not due to gear teeth-shedding. (been awhile since I looked inside... ) PM me if that interests you.

    I'm also interested in the power drawbar mod... Gary E., if you could start a new thread with your recollections, parts, or even pix, that would be great.
    Did you have to remove the spindle interlock?

    I'll verify markings on my KS200 master toolholder tonight,if nobody beats me to it.

    Chip
    No removal of the Interlock bar, it stayed right there were the factory put it.
    I did this so long ago and sold everything so no pictures and I didnt bother to keep drawings... The trick is to get whatever air powered drawbar you think will fit and design a mounting system. I used a air powered one that was intended for a Bridgeport, no electrical requirements and the pushbutons for the DrawBar TOOL IN / OUT were air. I will tell you that the original Cincinnati installed drawbar must be made longer at the top where it mates with the AirMotor socket. I did this by boring the top of the drawbar, and making the extension to fit the drawbar motors socket, and pinning the extension into the Cincy drawbar. I suppose a new drawbar could be made so it's all in one piece so it would be stronger. Remember to change tools the quill has to be fully in the UP position, and usually the quil clamped so when the Drawbar Airmotor unscrews the drawbar, the tool is pushed out of the spindle. If the quill is not clamped the unscrewing of the drawbar may only push the quill lower.

    If your just a hobbyist, I'd stay with the Universal Engineering Co Kwick Switch, plenty of N/C production machines used that back in the 60's

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    A cheaper alternative that I've thought about is to bolt something for the drawbar to push against to the top cover . To change tools you would raise the quill all the way up, lock the spindle and use the factory wrench, but when the drawbar is unscrewed a couple turns it will bump against whatever I come up with. From there you should be able to keep un-screwing the drawbar to un-seat the tool. Still not near as fast as a power drawbar but better than climbing up to tap on the drawbar all the time. Mine is worse since it has an 8 or 9" riser.

    Thoughts?

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    well is spent the last 10 hours at my shop, working on the machine.
    fixed the high low speed problem- the set screw that holds the ball bearing moved in and was jamming. i also found a half dozen broken cir-clips.
    the z power feed didn't work- because the shear pin was... well sheared, and the feed handle didn't dis engage the power feed.

    this machine was obviously abused. kinda what i expected for 500 bucks.

    fixed all that, filled it with grease, and im bolting it together tomorrow.

    while i was doing that my dad did all the electrical.

    unfortunately we dont have a 3 phase box, so i'll have to wait tell tues to try it out.

    im still debating weather to get er collets or the acurflex ks collets.

    edit: forgot, my forward stop reverse switch has a broken leg, so i'm getting creative with that too.
    its easier to count the things that arnt broken.

    is it possible to get y powerfeed?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_0031-1-.jpg   img_0036-1-.jpg   img_0037-1-.jpg   img_0038-1-.jpg   img_0039-1-.jpg  

    Last edited by yetiking; 01-15-2011 at 10:18 PM. Reason: forgot some details

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    i guess thats 1 and 2 kinda sorted out.
    now one to number 3
    the X powerfeed on the table is just shredded- the gears are totally ruined- im guessing im never going to see parts for this again, so im better off getting gears made for but if anyone has any ideas on were to get parts that would be great.
    If the gears are truly stripped and missing teeth that surely does suck. I bought a toolmaster with the same problem at a heck of a discount. The real issue is the trip dog on the X-Axis is one of the few poorly designed parts on the machine and doesn't always disengage when running in the direction of the table. If you let your self get distracted you can have 1/3rd horse power shoving the table against the knee and the knee wins! Fortunately for my gear box the gears never broke, rather the shafts had some reliefs built in to them and the shafts broke. this was far easier to fix as all I had to do was bore the end of the shafts out and press in new inserts. The other thing about that gear box is that for the most part there was no way to get some of the bronze bushings out indestructively. Plan on buying about 1ft of oil impregnated bronze to do this rebuild also. On the flip side perhaps you may want to consider removing that gear box all together and trying to get one of those cheaper Bridgeport type varispeed boxes to fit. I have used and really like the varispeed gearboxes quite a bit. I find being able to dial in the feed till the chips are coming off just right is a lot nicer than taking your best guess at the speed and setting it on the Toolmaster. If I had to remake gears I think that would be what I would be looking into first.

    Adam

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    Adam,
    Have you or anyone you know fitted the Bridgeport style feed units to the knee of a toolmaster? Ray Behner said he had fitted a DC motor and chains to a toolmaster he had. I would love to do the Bridgeport style to mine, as cranking that devil up and down gets me in the back. I think you would have to get one from a bigger mill, like one from an import that had a 10"x54" table.
    I also need the knobs for my feed boxes, anyone have a source?
    Rick Hinsen

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    Rick, I never have but I would think that there has to be a way to rig one up.


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