Curiosity : What if any American manual mill was comparable to the best Euro mills
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    Default Curiosity : What if any American manual mill was comparable to the best Euro mills

    Was there any American made manual universial milling machine that was comparable or came close to Deckels, Schaublins, Aciera, Sixis, Abene, Hermle, Mikron ?

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    Close in terms of what? As bad as? As expensive as? As noisy as?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rklopp View Post
    Close in terms of what? As bad as? As expensive as? As noisy as?
    Accuracy. Ability to hold very tight tolerances (in the tenths).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    Was there any American made manual universial milling machine that was comparable or came close to Deckels, Schaublins, Aciera, Sixis, Abene, Hermle, Mikron ?
    Devlieg. Kicks ass over every single one of the above. If you ever get a chance at a 2B, grab it.

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    " Cincinnati " and " Kearney & Trecker " were as good as it gets regarding jobbing milling machines. The ones you mention were more what I'd call toolroom milling machines. You missed " Huron " out, they were/are nice machines.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Tenths on a manual mill? Fantasy land dude.
    You might think you are that close but you are most likely not, I donít care what your readout says. The Euro style mill never really caught on here. We demand versatility and ease of use like a Bridgeport. The most accurate mill made here was most likely a Tree. The contact surfaces on the slideways are generous, hence stable after all we are cutting metal.

    Iíve never been impressed with the oiling scheme on a manual euro mill, I feel they are worse for wear as the machine ages and will harm this so called tenths accuracy.

    Now if you want tenths, spend a few grand on a Moore jig borer. Take a look at the design differences and you might understand what a tenths machine looks like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Devlieg. Kicks ass over every single one of the above. If you ever get a chance at a 2B, grab it.
    Spud, that was a Devlieg 2B we saw at the foundry. Way too big and heavy for general purpose use it went for scrap. What is so good about it? Looked like a beast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adh2000 View Post
    Spud, that was a Devlieg 2B we saw at the foundry. Way too big and heavy for general purpose use it went for scrap. What is so good about it? Looked like a beast.
    I'll let gbent be the fanboy this time but ad ? If you let a 2B go for scrap, and it wasn't beat to death, you truly fubarred. Nicest manual mill you will ever run. They do hold tenths. And not along a line; within the work envelope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCritchley View Post
    Tenths on a manual mill? Fantasy land dude.
    You might think you are that close but you are most likely not, I don’t care what your readout says. The Euro style mill never really caught on here. We demand versatility and ease of use like a Bridgeport. The most accurate mill made here was most likely a Tree. The contact surfaces on the slideways are generous, hence stable after all we are cutting metal.

    I’ve never been impressed with the oiling scheme on a manual euro mill, I feel they are worse for wear as the machine ages and will harm this so called tenths accuracy.

    Now if you want tenths, spend a few grand on a Moore jig borer. Take a look at the design differences and you might understand what a tenths machine looks like.
    The inspection report on the 1994 Abene I have , which was originally purchased new by United Airlines, says it is accurate to 0.0003" .


    Any opinions on Brown & Sharpe No. 2 or Kearney and Trecker No.2H or 2D ?

    I am not looking for one of these mills, just curious if the US ever competed with the Europeans for toolroom mills, like how Monarch, Rivett and Hardinge compared favorably with Schaublin, Mikron, Weiler, Hembrug, Cazeneuve etc..

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    There's the Brown & Sharpe Omniversal for coolness factor: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/omniversal.jpg It has too many slides stacked on one another to be able to deliver tenths.

    I have always considered the spindle and feed transmission guts of a later-model K&T universal to be more sophisticated than any Euro mill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    The inspection report on the 1994 Abene I have , which was originally purchased new by United Airlines, says it is accurate to 0.0003" .


    Any opinions on Brown & Sharpe No. 2 or Kearney and Trecker No.2H or 2D ?

    I am not looking for one of these mills, just curious if the US ever competed with the Europeans for toolroom mills, like how Monarch, Rivett and Hardinge compared favorably with Schaublin, Mikron, Weiler, Hembrug, Cazeneuve etc..
    You miss the entire point, Spud

    US made machine-tools did not HAVE to be uber-versatile in frugal overall space , mass, and power budgets.

    We had SPACE for as many "good ENOUGH" at their job, different achine-tool for another job, different yet.. etc.

    We had MARKET enough to run every damned "flavour" of a machine as had even a tiny edge advantage, and run 'em to their very death as fast was we could MAKE them wear-out .. so as to replace them sooner with newer and better.

    Ever hear of anyone wanting to "gold-plate" a wore-out Haas and burn incense in its honour? The gold goes into the bank to buy a better machine. Not onto the dead hulk of the obsolete machine that earned it.

    We had LABOUR as could do more with less by being barely-decent basic specialists in their millions, not zen-master generalists in their few dozens.

    That attitude of coining revenue "at a combat speed" earned the money to make it work, do it again, faster, better, and more cheaply.

    Go figure China did the same.

    Earned money. Not the prestige of an open-air museum.
    That part, PRC left to their military.

    Why fight a wasteful blood and boolits war when you can earn money fast enough in an economic war to just BUY your potential enemy and .. trigger 'im to f**k hisself up ... for amusement ...in yer spare time?

    Read the dam' funny papers lately?

    "QE-f**king-D"

    "America" never was just "one place".

    It's a state of mind.

    Helluva lot of languages amongst the hard-working folk chasing that "state of mind", the world over.

    Not as if we actually held any sort of enforceable patent on human endeavour, was it?

    Joe Buyed-in an effective President?

    Or just one more ineffective wannbee Mortician?

    Guess it doesn't even MATTER ... if enough go-getters but stay on their feet rather than on their ass?

    What's that MariTool Tee shirt say?

    "Nobody Cares"
    "Work harder"

    Surely got THAT shot right!

    Wonder what the writing of it looked like back around the time Sumer had their litte water problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    You miss the entire point, Spud

    US made machine-tools did not HAVE to be uber-versatile in frugal overall space , mass, and power budgets.

    We had SPACE for as many "good ENOUGH" at their job, different achine-tool for another job, different yet.. etc.

    We had MARKET enough to run every damned "flavour" of a machine as had even a tiny edge advantage, and run 'em to their very death as fast was we could MAKE them wear-out .. so as to replace them sooner with newer and better.

    Ever hear of anyone wanting to "gold-plate" a wore-out Haas and burn incense in its honour? The gold goes into the bank to buy a better machine. Not onto the dead hulk of the obsolete machine that earned it.

    We had LABOUR as could do more with less by being barely-decent basic specialists in their millions, not zen-master generalists in their few dozens.

    That attitude of coining revenue "at a combat speed" earned the money to make it work, do it again, faster, better, and more cheaply.

    Go figure China did the same.

    Earned money. Not the prestige of an open-air museum.
    That part, PRC left to their military.

    Why fight a wasteful blood and boolits war when you can earn money fast enough in an economic war to just BUY your potential enemy and .. trigger 'im to f**k hisself up ... for amusement ...in yer spare time?

    Read the dam' funny papers lately?

    "QE-f**king-D"

    "America" never was just "one place".

    It's a state of mind.

    Helluva lot of languages amongst the hard-working folk chasing that "state of mind", the world over.

    Not as if we actually held any sort of enforceable patent on human endeavour, was it?

    Joe Buyed-in an effective President?

    Or just one more ineffective wannbee Mortician?

    Guess it doesn't even MATTER ... if enough go-getters but stay on their feet rather than on their ass?

    What's that MariTool Tee shirt say?

    "Nobody Cares"
    "Work harder"

    Surely got THAT shot right!

    Wonder what the writing of it looked like back around the time Sumer had their litte water problem?
    Since they required toolroom spec lathes, doesn't it stand to reason that American industry required toolroom spec manual mills? Afterall , there wouldn't have been a market here for Deckels, Mahos, Hermle and Aciera if not.

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    If you are looking for a super accurate machine, think Jig Borer such as Moore, Pratt and Whitney, Devlieg, etc. If you want a super versatile machine, think Bridgeport, Kearney Trecker, Cincinnatti. etc. There is some cross overs, but not every job requires tenths, so not all machines were built that way (at least not until CNC came along and made the moving components so much cheaper and simpler that manufacturers could make a frame that was good for anything). The same goes for measuring tools. I don't want to pay for a +/-.000005" micrometer when the print is calling for +/- .005.

    IMO it boils down to a way of thinking. Unless you are trying to mass produce injection molds and do it manually, there's no need to have an all-in-one high-accuracy machine. Each has a place. In my limited experience, europeans manufacturors think differently than Americans. In Europe, high value is (or was) equated to fine skill-craft or high accuracy, like a sports car. In America, High value is (or was) equated to versatility and reliability, like a sedan. The more global we've become, the more those lines have blurred.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M.B. Naegle View Post
    If you are looking for a super accurate machine, think Jig Borer such as Moore, Pratt and Whitney, Devlieg, etc. If you want a super versatile machine, think Bridgeport, Kearney Trecker, Cincinnatti. etc. There is some cross overs, but not every job requires tenths, so not all machines were built that way (at least not until CNC came along and made the moving components so much cheaper and simpler that manufacturers could make a frame that was good for anything). The same goes for measuring tools. I don't want to pay for a +/-.000005" micrometer when the print is calling for +/- .005.

    IMO it boils down to a way of thinking. Unless you are trying to mass produce injection molds and do it manually, there's no need to have an all-in-one high-accuracy machine. Each has a place.
    Point. Eye-surgeon's scalpel, Sushi chef, Chinese chef's knife, Chinese BUTCHER's hand-axe chopper are all sharp at an edge.

    Just not all meant for the same tasking or level of precision.

    And NONE of those craftsmen would want a "Swiss Army knife" at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    Since they required toolroom spec lathes, doesn't it stand to reason that American industry required toolroom spec manual mills? Afterall , there wouldn't have been a market here for Deckels, Mahos, Hermle and Aciera if not.
    C'mon, gbent, where are ya when we need you ?

    Devlieg, named Jigmil because, contrary to popular opinion, they are accurate to tenths.

    Step one - no knee with flimsy little ways balanced on a screw in the middle. Take a rectangular box, place it upon the panet's surface, and set your table on top. Fully suppported by Mother Earth throughout the entire travel of the machine.

    Step two, we don't want the other axis to be flimsy either, bolt a building to the side of the box, with gigantic ways for the spindle to travel upon. This is not going to deflect either, and also supported at the base by that same Mother Earth.

    Step three, quill ? No. Solid bar which deflects the minimum you could ask for even when fully extended. To make it more convenient, power drawbar for nmtb taper (common and economical yet accurate.)

    Add a few accessories - two-part angle plates that are accurate and beefy, plus an airlift rotary table also accurate to a gnat's ass, and we have versatility.

    Add troughs for setting gages, a la Moore, and tenths indicators with electric control - table rapids to position, stops, backs up, slowfeeds to position, releases pressure on screw, clamps. All by itself (after you push the button.)

    Design this by people who have actually run machines in their life, and you get controls that fall readily to hand. Running a Devlieg is a pleasure. Everything just is where it should be.

    Yes, they are beefy for their travels. Didn't you say you wanted accuracy ? You think some spindly-ass noodle is going to provide that ?

    adh ma man, if you watched a 2B go to scrap, you should be crying in your cheerios. Those are nice nice nice machines. And I may misremember wrong, but Devlieg certified them within tenths over the entire work envelope.

    Maybe SIP6A will jump in here but I can't think of another manual mill that is nearly as nice, accurate and versatile as a Devlieg.


    Just one example - favor for the neighbors, you know how those go. Exhaust manifold with a leak, weird-ass thing, about three feet long, humpty-dumpty shape, face at the far end kind of in a hole was eaten away. Can you fix this ? The kind of thing you should just say "no" but it's the neighbors.

    Stick it on an angle plate with hose clamps and bubble gum, put a 3" face mill in the bar, stick the bar out 18", I know this is not going to work but at least it'll look like I'm trying, whooop whooop whoop, faces the nasty-ass exhaust-corroded full-of-chunks cast iron three feet down a hole slick as a whistle. Well damn, guess I'm better than I thought I was. (All the machine's fault, but what the heck, take any stars you can get when offered.)

    Lots of jigbored stuff, right on the money. Really great and accurate machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    adh ma man, if you watched a 2B go to scrap, you should be crying in your cheerios.
    Itís true Iím afraid. I could have had it for $250. I showed it to spud, heís a young un with some energy. Actually Milacron could have had it too, he bought the Monarch lathe.

    Agree the controls were a nice layout. Never ran one. I didnít look the weight up but looked like about 16,000 pounds to me. More than my puny 8,000 pound Caterpillar can handle so would have to hire riggers at both ends. Then the shop is full so would have to bring riggers back to move it from storage to the shop. It all starts to add up.

    The horizontal boring mill style seems limiting to me. Tell me Iím wrong. A lot of work would have to be mounted to angle plates, thatís a pain. Oh well. Machine was in a foundry and beat and dirty beyond belief.



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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Devlieg. Kicks ass over every single one of the above. If you ever get a chance at a 2B, grab it.
    2B? I'm getting the shop ready for the 4H60 (with 60" on the column) I bought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adh2000 View Post
    I didn¬’t look the weight up but looked like about 16,000 pounds to me.
    12,500 I think. I've seen bigger numbers but don't think they are accurate. My 16 Gleason weighed more, those are about 14 thou.

    The horizontal boring mill style seems limiting to me. Tell me I’m wrong.
    You're wrong Okay, for drilling a hole not the best, but I had a drill press. For anything else, horizontal is just about as convenient. Sometimes better.

    A lot of work would have to be mounted to angle plates, that’s a pain.
    Devlieg angle blocks are t-slotted and very versatile. Just as convenient as a Bridgeport table, except you get 36" by 24" or so to work with. The extra Y is loverly. And the chips fall down. And the bar is rigid compared to a stinky quill.

    Of course, if your bread and butter is 1" parts, probably not so good. But for the parts I did (average size, I'd say), super.

    Machine was in a foundry and beat and dirty beyond belief
    Okay, you're off the hook then. Dirty is okay but beat to death kinda defeats the purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archer120x
    I'm getting the shop ready for the 4H60 (with 60" on the column) I bought.
    It'd kill me just to change tools on something that big now

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    It'd kill me just to change tools on something that big now
    Made my bones treating the illness, not the symptom.

    Got a ship-to?

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    Looks like I was wrong. It happens. I grabbed the literature before the machine went. It was not a 2B but rather a 3H-48.



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