Curiosity : What if any American manual mill was comparable to the best Euro mills - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    I looked up past auctions on Bidspotter. Below is the link to the machine.

    Devlieg Spiramatic Jigmil Model 3H-48






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    Quote Originally Posted by adh2000 View Post
    The horizontal boring mill style seems limiting to me. Tell me I’m wrong. A lot of work would have to be mounted to angle plates, that’s a pain.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I spent many years running nothing but DeVliegs. Generally we left the angle plates mounted. Rarely took them off. Except for rotab work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adh2000 View Post
    It was not a 2B but rather a 3H-48.
    Yeah, the 3's are starting to get a little out of hand for toolroom work. Forgot to mention one cool feature - of course you can crank handles but easier to push the button for feeds. But the feed buttons have another nice feature, they are two-stage. Push halfway for feed (determined by change gears) then push harder to get rapid. And the table zoops in and out on a platen to make room for measuring. Sweet. Controls for all axes and spindle grouped together logically. Just a pleasure to run.

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    The 2B is 14,000#, the 3H is 25,000#. Twice as much work envelop, almost twice as much weight.

    The 3,4,and 5" machines got updated with more electromechanical gizmos for more productivity. The 2B, which is a 2 1/2" bar, always stayed the same. The bare essentials of electric controls necessary to function.

    I've driven quite a few mills, and the 2B takes the cake. 2 speed bull horns for the bar, adjustable depth stops to feed either direction, a turret of depth stops for repetitive work. 12" of bar, and 12" of table retraction. No matter how far you have the bar out you don't lose contact area, as the bar goes through the entire head and the back end is supported on rails.

    You stand at the operators station. Your right hand has all the power controls, along with spindle speed and spindle feed. Your left hand has the selector for table or head movement. Yes, one occasional drawback. You can feed/rapid the table or the head, never both at once. But the lever is actually at your finger tips. Left hand also has the table/head feedrate dial.

    If you've never driven a horizontal mill you may have to struggle to get your head around the possibilities. A horizontal mill is great for working 90 degrees to the locating face. Plus every horizontal mill has a built in poor boy rotary table, just turn the workpiece on the table. For working opposite the locating face there are the angle plates.

    When it comes to accuracy, a bed mill where only one axis is effected by the workpiece weight is head and shoulders above anybody's knee mill. Full axis travels with never any overhang.

    And just like Moore, DeVlieg made an entire productivity suite of tooling specifically to enhance the throughput, speed, and flexibility of the machines. You could buy DeVlieg boring bars from Moore for a Moore machine, but I don't know of a Moore anything you could buy from DeVlieg to use on a DeVlieg.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_20210305_221357118.jpg   img_20210305_221349021.jpg  

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    i have yet to see a deckel or aciera as beat to shit as an old k&t gorton mastermil or a cincy 1-d toolmaster
    . i'm too young to know but i'd bet they were just fine in 1969.

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    Are you talking about the K&T MilwakeeMatics ? ? ?

    -Doozer

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    Since we are talking about manual mills we are talking about days gone by. Some shops that used BPs for close work (such as making celestial navigation optics with a grinding spindle) would, the minute they took delivery, order another one. The lead time for BP in their '60s heyday was 13 months, which was about the time needed for wear to begin to affect the machine's repeatability (we're talking ridiculously small amounts with chrome ways, but it was a business decision for the times. When their new one arrived they'd sell the old one for what they paid for it, the demand was such in those days).

    When I started there was no choice but to invent all kinds of fixtures for machining castings on BPs. Turning handles to repeat a number was wearying. A 5-axis VMC will do a better job and you don't break a sweat. There's no place for BPs in a production environment. We still have 5 or 6, they were converted to single-setup and 2nd op work—practically drill presses.

    But as a world standard for pure handiness the Bridgeport gets my vote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Since we are talking about manual mills we are talking about days gone by. Some shops that used BPs for close work (such as making celestial navigation optics with a grinding spindle) would, the minute they took delivery, order another one. The lead time for BP in their '60s heyday was 13 months, which was about the time needed for wear to begin to affect the machine's repeatability (we're talking ridiculously small amounts with chrome ways, but it was a business decision for the times. When their new one arrived they'd sell the old one for what they paid for it, the demand was such in those days).

    When I started there was no choice but to invent all kinds of fixtures for machining castings on BPs. Turning handles to repeat a number was wearying. A 5-axis VMC will do a better job and you don't break a sweat. There's no place for BPs in a production environment. We still have 5 or 6, they were converted to single-setup and 2nd op work—practically drill presses.

    But as a world standard for pure handiness the Bridgeport gets my vote.
    In the technical college I graduated from here in Milwaukee, the manual milling starts off with Bridgeports and then we go onto conversational CNC Klausing that are Bridgeport type knee mills. The Klausings can be used in only manual mode or conversational. The Bridgeports despite being much older can hold tighter tolerances than the Klausings.

    I am just very surprised that there was no domestic competition to the Aciera,Schaublin, Deckel et all Euro high precision manual mills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    The inspection report on the 1994 Abene I have , which was originally purchased new by United Airlines, says it is accurate to 0.0003" .


    Any opinions on Brown & Sharpe No. 2 or Kearney and Trecker No.2H or 2D ?

    I am not looking for one of these mills, just curious if the US ever competed with the Europeans for toolroom mills, like how Monarch, Rivett and Hardinge compared favorably with Schaublin, Mikron, Weiler, Hembrug, Cazeneuve etc..
    So you think if,for example, you
    Need three holes at X0,Y0 X1,Y1 and
    X.5, Y.5 your Abene will put them in within
    Plus minus .0003? Maybe Termite might do it on his drill
    Press but I don't think so

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    So you think if,for example, you
    Need three holes at X0,Y0 X1,Y1 and
    X.5, Y.5 your Abene will put them in within
    Plus minus .0003? Maybe Termite might do it on his drill
    Press but I don't think so
    ROFL! "Neither wll I", channeling the joke about Winston Churchill and Eleanor Roosevelt!

    Electric bill is too painful arredy.

    How much steel, and how many drills can you spare until stubbornness and fortuitous accident gets the first one RIGHT?

    The Electro-Mecano is not any closer to a jig bore than the Alzmetall AB5/S is!

    "Optimists"?

    God must have loved them or they'd have settled where winters weren't so damned harsh.

    OTOH, that Abene weren't made in sunny Italy, either, were it?

    Want to move a hole 3 tenths and the machine ain't in for it?
    Open a window. ELSE fire up the Herman Nelson. JF do the math!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Since we are talking about manual mills we are talking about days gone by. Some shops that used BPs for close work (such as making celestial navigation optics with a grinding spindle) would, the minute they took delivery, order another one. The lead time for BP in their '60s heyday was 13 months, which was about the time needed for wear to begin to affect the machine's repeatability (we're talking ridiculously small amounts with chrome ways, but it was a business decision for the times. When their new one arrived they'd sell the old one for what they paid for it, the demand was such in those days).

    When I started there was no choice but to invent all kinds of fixtures for machining castings on BPs. Turning handles to repeat a number was wearying. A 5-axis VMC will do a better job and you don't break a sweat. There's no place for BPs in a production environment. We still have 5 or 6, they were converted to single-setup and 2nd op work—practically drill presses.

    But as a world standard for pure handiness the Bridgeport gets my vote.
    Cool I had no idea that during those days - a bit earlier than mine that BP’s were ordered in such a manner . In the case which you mention it was a very rational decision. I learned on a Bridgeport which was a lot more fun than deburing , punching multiple holes on sheet metal and bending that.

    The machine is down right versatile and meant to be. The mindset of getting work done in the fashion of how Americans function and make business shows this machine really fit the need.

    I am sure the European machines are great. In the discussion Americans are usually complementary on such things. Quality is quality.

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    I’ve never operated any of those European machines but my 2D will hold .0005” on diameter all day everyday without trying. It’s accurate enough I haven’t used a boring head on a shallow hole in a long time. Insert cutter, rough the diameter within .010”, measure hole or OD and finish to the numbers off the dial.

    I also have a like new K&T 2CHL that will consistently repeat .0005”.

    I built a die for a buddy in a couple of hours to make this 3.4” end cap plug on the 2D. I only measured twice and it came out perfect.

    Andy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 404246a8-7f81-4168-a8ef-0c082c4bd6c2.jpg   6a25c69f-a7ce-472d-95af-75aed2684873.jpg   b60361d9-3c4e-438a-82c5-839b8a929a53.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCritchley View Post
    T
    I’ve never been impressed with the oiling scheme on a manual euro mill, .
    You'd really the love bearing arrangements in some Acieras and Deckels......needle bearings with the out race being the housing and inner being the shaft

    and agreed, this side of the pond we mill to tenths with grinders

    I've lots of machines from England, America and Europe.....never thought they are weren't of comparable quality (although there is something special about the Schaublins ). As TT said, quality is quality

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    You'd really the love bearing arrangements in some Acieras and Deckels......needle bearings with the out race being the housing and inner being the shaft
    Aye. And hand-selecting and fitting replacement rolling-elements one installation at a time as they wear?

    Damn if that don't remind a person of a shoemaker specializing in crafting custom Orthopedic footwear one shoe at a time, not even a PAIR..for folk with "non standard" feets?

    Only because he can.

    Good job the buggers weren't making trinket batteries, motor vehicle, nor over-the rail wheels and tires!!!


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    I've lots of machines from England, America and Europe.....never thought they are weren't of comparable quality (although there is something special about the Schaublins ). As TT said, quality is quality[/QUOTE]

    There is! The last machine I will get rid of is my Schaublin 70!

    Spud, the 3 tenths accuracy is on the build sheet is cool, id imagine a few b ports and sharp mills would be that close also. Now place a 90 pound Kurt vise on the Abene table and maybe some cutting force while your on top of it and that 3 tenths multiplies quickly. Most that own and build milling machines are realistic about tolerances.
    Moore sold quite a few machines, probably many more than all of the SIP and Hausers combined. When a shop needed tenths they bought a Moore, they didnt fool them selves with a knee mill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCritchley View Post
    Moore sold quite a few machines, probably many more than all of the SIP and Hausers combined. When a shop needed tenths they bought a Moore, they didnt fool them selves with a knee mill.
    "Optimists" - if not-also "pragmatists".. got by OK with Pratt & Whitney, DeVlieg, or Gortons, and a bit more sweat, though.

    Even if they had to adjust design expectations to the economic reality of "run what you got, not what you WISH you got", and select for the best parts out of several attempts?

    Limited unit-count, it WAS often cheaper and faster on small runs to just scrap a few "almost good enough" hunks of metal, use the best and drive-on at solving the next challenge sooner and cheaper.

    If more machines were Moore-nearly-perfect? More highly-expert machinists would be makin' Moore-money flippin' burgers.

    Oh.

    Wait?

    Is THAT WTF CNC brung us?


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    As long as we are talking tenths...

    When I look at a Deckel style mill one thought comes to my head. How much does that cantilevered table sag when you mount a vise or anything that weighs more than 20 kilo's?

    The nice thing about a B port is that you can tram the head to the workpiece if you need to bore a perpendicular hole or something. I think you would be breaking out shims with the Deckel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCritchley View Post
    As long as we are talking tenths...

    When I look at a Deckel style mill one thought comes to my head. How much does that cantilevered table sag when you mount a vise or anything that weighs more than 20 kilo's?

    The nice thing about a B port is that you can tram the head to the workpiece if you need to bore a perpendicular hole or something. I think you would be breaking out shims with the Deckel.
    Dount a Deckel (style) actually DOES sag all that much, and no law against placing a jack to correct it if the tasking makes that "possible" as well as prudent. Eg; "Only sometimes".

    Otherwise.. resolute and unquestioned pain in the arse to set up or not, I'd take a stout tilt-table or jacks, screws, and wedges redneck monkey-patch style on the no-nodding-knuckle 5205 lb Avoir USMT "Quartet" far stouter knee ..over the less controllable flex in a BirdPort's thinner table and "handier" vertical head rig any day of any year.

    Mind.. I ain't EVER "in a hurry", so that don't "sell well" to a revenoo shop.

    And "Quartets" did not. Sell well.

    Not sure they ever built even 50 of them, total, all of their many options, combined, #9 B&S to 50 Taper & HP according to the option, vertical spindle menu alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    If you've never driven a horizontal mill you may have to struggle to get your head around the possibilities. A horizontal mill is great for working 90 degrees to the locating face. Plus every horizontal mill has a built in poor boy rotary table, just turn the workpiece on the table. For working opposite the locating face there are the angle plates.
    Don't forget the chips are s'posed to fall on the table when things are good gbent.

    When I think best Euro toolroom mills I think Dixi or SIP??? I do like the Deckel style machines & ogle posts when Ross (AlfaGTA) puts up the cool sh!t he does with his. The former Dixi-SIP’s carried the measuring/precision part with traceable scales & super optics, In the US we forever used gage blocks or end measuring rods, Bridgeport did have a glass (optical) scale system that resolved to tenths also the end measuring rod setups.

    Regarding the DeVlieg’s (old driver here), prolly more were used in short run “high precision” production work than were used in tool rooms. Initial setups & tool setting would be done by skilled folks & the operator would run to the punchlist. DeVlieg religion stated “THE TABLE IS THE FIXTURE”. C.B. DeVlieg was a strange cat & said “Machine tools don’t make parts, they make chips and leave the part behind”. When actually at the controls, if the machine wasn’t cutting in the next few moments you were in trouble. LOL!

    For accuracy the 2B could work to .0001” X-Y with end measuring rods, but when using the auto position that went to .0002” (that was over the machines envelope). The spindle was .001” (feed stop) and then by hand position to .0001” using the turret indicator. The table retract dial resolved to .001” and the table stop is much the same as a cylindrical grinder so on advance it would repeat 0000” every time. These machines were more like working with lab grade surface plates, precision squares & right angles.

    They made a lot of jewelry for these things including duplitrol bars to make specific parts, did a good business while it lasted.

    Good luck,
    Matt
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails devlieg_autoposa.jpg   devlieg_duplitrola.jpg   devlieg_tableretracta.jpg   devlieg_kneesa.jpg   devlieg_jewelry.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    So you think if,for example, you
    Need three holes at X0,Y0 X1,Y1 and
    X.5, Y.5 your Abene will put them in within
    Plus minus .0003? Maybe Termite might do it on his drill
    Press but I don't think so

    That was the accuracy of the mill when it was new. Now mine looks like it was barely used, and is in very good condition but as I've yet to use it, I don't know how accurate it is. I would need greater accuracy than +/- 0.0003" to locate the holes to +/- 0.0003".


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