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Drilling and tapping with Kearney and Trecker model 2hl swivel head with quill

Jadams7

Plastic
Joined
Jun 18, 2019
Looking into purchasing a swivel head k&t with quill for a general purpose mill in my small shop. My question to everyone is how would drilling and tapping with this machine work? It looks like it could be a bit awkward and I'm not sure if you could accurately drill blind holes to depth. I know a bridgeport or something of the like would be more ideal (I've also thought of adapting a bridgeport head). But let's all be honest BP's go for way too much and the k&t's are built far better. Plus these k&t mills cost a lot less. Just want some input from guys with experience because I've never been around a mill like this. Thanks in advance.
 
Looking into purchasing a swivel head k&t with quill for a general purpose mill in my small shop. My question to everyone is how would drilling and tapping with this machine work? It looks like it could be a bit awkward and I'm not sure if you could accurately drill blind holes to depth. I know a bridgeport or something of the like would be more ideal (I've also thought of adapting a bridgeport head). But let's all be honest BP's go for way too much and the k&t's are built far better. Plus these k&t mills cost a lot less. Just want some input from guys with experience because I've never been around a mill like this. Thanks in advance.

Drilling is easy, just wind or power feed the quill down or the knee up. Tapping isn't so easy but if the quill is nice and free to wind and you run slow on the spindle it's doable. Obviously you'll need a forward/reverse switch on the power for your spindle to retract the tap. It'd be handy if the spindle brake actually works also.

Regards Tyrone.
 
I own one of these and have drilled and reamed with it, but I can't imagine trying to use it for tapping without something such as a Tapmatic head or some other clutching mechanism, and even then it would still be onerous, not to mention how much you would have to lower the knee to use it. The only time I have used my to drill was for something that required more critical placement and fixturing than I could perform on my drill press, and another time I needed to make an angular hole and it wasn't practical to set up the part on a sine plate.

The handwheel on the quill only moves 0.050 per revolution, so if you're doing much your arm is going to feel like Jell-O by the time you finish. The one thing it would do is accurately drill blind holes to depth. Also, with that ratio you don't have the "feel" you get from a drill press or Bridgeport type quill, so your eyes and ears better be working well. I suppose you could use the power feed on Z, but again, plenty of opportunities to go crunch, so you had better have abilities to back up your confidence should you attempt it.

Mounting a Bridgeport head to one of these would take an extreme amount of doing and really be a waste of the machine. In fact, I think it would move the quill so far toward the operator that you'd only be able to use your table at the extreme end of your Y-travel. Each mill has its place and no mill does it all. Get yourself a nice drill press to accompany your 2HL Swivel and perhaps you can still accomplish most of your tasks and stay within budget.
 

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Is the OP talking about a horizontal machine fitted with vertical head or a vertical machine? A BP head on a 2HL horizontal would come in handy.
 
I take it to mean he's talking about a 2HL Swivel Head Vertical, which is the proper catalog designation for one of these:
 

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Wow I didnt expect such a big response so fast. Thank you for the info guys.

Tyrone, that's about what I was thinking. I assumed drilling would be easy enough with power feed on the knee. But I was hesitant to think that the quill would be free enough to power tap as you would with a BP. and I do believe it has a spindle reverse of some kind. Just not as a switch.

W_higgins, your post has helped to put things in perspective. I had figured the quill feed wheel fed in small increments and haven't even considered a tap head for that reason. Also with such a fine feed I would imagine that deterring one from drilling smaller holes? And if you don't mind how does it drill holes to a repeatable and accurate depth? Is the threaded rod on the top by the draw bar a quill stop? Why in your opinion would adapting a BP head be a waste? In my mind it adds to versatility if the seperate heads can be managed with ease. My idea was to make an adapter plate or two and attach the head without the nodding link. So that the BP head would only swivel like the original head. All in all would you say you're happy with your current setup of 2hl and drill press for your work?

Just to clarify the mill in question is exactly like the pictures W_Higgins has shared. And it is a vertical mill. Not a mill with vertical attachment. I apologize for not adding pictures yet. It is giving me trouble because im on a cell phone.
 
You can't float the quill on this like you can a Bridgeport or drill press. It is more like the tailstock on a lathe. Furthermore, to put this into perspective -- where the K&T quill travels 0.050 per revolution, the tailstock on my Series 60 Monarch travels 0.250 per revolution, so you have to turn the K&T 5:1 to accomplish the same task.

It absolutely will drill to a repeatable depth. It's a mill. Both the table and quill are graduated to 0.001". There is a spindle reverse. It is a T-handle you pull out located beneath the spindle speed shifters.

You can drill small holes, it's just that you'll have no "feel", so you really need to pay attention to what you're doing and clear chips frequently. When you feed the bit back into the hole, the biggest challenge is knowing when you hit bottom. Yes, the threaded rod extending above the head is a threaded stop and that nut is also graduated 0.001 (0.100 per revolution).

Part of my thinking regarding the head swap is that if you were going to run the BP head exclusively, you are swapping out a 30-taper spindle for one that is R-8 and a head that is lacking rigidity when compared to the machine base. If you can make them easily interchangeable, go for it, but you will be using an engine crane or some such each time you need to do it. The K&T swivel head is more than you can manhandle. I was also thinking that you wanted both swivel features of the BP head and if you do it will move the head very close to the operator. If you sacrifice one, you'll just have to calculate how much of that will be consumed by your adapter plate. The spindle drive gear protrudes from the column a good ways into the head, so your adapter plate will have to be at least at thick to start. All-in-all the original K&T set-up is rather compact. When the table is all the way toward you the centerline of the K&T spindle will not move beyond the rear of the table, so any distance you move the BP spindle toward the operator is table travel you will sacrifice.

I mostly get by with my 2HL and drill press, though there are times I wouldn't mind a Bridgeport.... and about a 1/2-dozen other mills I would like to own! I recently added a 2D so that did away with the need for some of the others, though in my case a lot of this stuff is more to do with "want" than "need".

Years ago I made a post about servicing the head and the photos are gone since having divorced my photo hosting service. My intention is to redo the post as soon as I can find another good way to host the photos. If you haven't bought this thing yet and the seller will let you, remove the nuts one at a time, remove the washers, then slip the nuts back on about two turns and pull the head back so you can have a look at the wear on the spindle drive gears. They don't run in an oil bath and are often neglected. Also, you can pop the quill feed handwheel assembly off rather easy by removing the socket head cap screws, though I doubt there is much wear at that location. A third potential issue is the quill clamp collar seems to be a point of neglect. My is broken and I have seen another like that. It's easy enough to check. If you clamp it and the quill still moves as though it's not clamped at all, it likely has a busted ear. Otherwise, as with all K&T's, check all the feeds in all the speeds and make sure the rest of the works are in good shape.
 

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I figured you wouldn't be able to float the head. Thank you for clarifying that. And with that ratio I'd imagine it to be tiresome drilling any respectable amount of holes.

That makes sense for depth accuracy. I just didn't know if it had a quill stop and graduations on the quill feed handle. I also feel like the spindle reverse is in an awkward spot to be used frequently such as with power tapping.

I definitely agree with the sacrifice of rigidity. But space is at such a premium in my shop it may be worth adapting a BP head depending on the work. Especially if the lead I have on a J head is good. Although it does worry me how much travel I may lose. I will just have to consider that when the time comes.

That is good to hear that you're happy with that setup. I have a few drill presses including a variable speed wilton. I completely understand the want. It's the need that's hard to get through my head haha. I'm jealous of that 2D! I couldn't imagine owning such a fine piece of equipment. You say that the k&t is pretty compact. What would you say the footprint is?

I'll be looking out for the new post! I'd definitely like to read up on how you refurbished the head. Thank you for mentioning the problem areas I'll have to check them out when I go to inspect it.

All in all I believe I'll purchase the machine if it goes for what I think it will. It's just to fine of equipment to let pass by. And I'm sure I'll regret it if I don't purchase. I really appreciate all of the experience and knowledge. This forum has always provided such valuable information.
 
I've tapped before in similar machines using a tap holder that had a fair amount of " float " - look up " Pearns " tap holder. You can " follow " the tap by " inching " the on off switch.

Of course this is for one off operations, serious volume tapping requires the correct machine for the job.

Regards Tyrone.
 
The overall space the 2HL takes up is a little under 5' x 5', not including travel space needed for the table. However, my comment regarding being compact was with respect to everything crammed inside the head. That said, my understanding is Swivel Heads were the smallest K&T vertical they built and they only weigh 3,000 some-odd pounds.

The spindle drive gear protrudes from the surface of the swivel head mount about 3" and the centerline of the spindle from that same point is about 5". If you can give me the measurement of the Bridgeport head from the mounting surface to the centerline of the spindle I can give you come idea of what that would do to the table travel taking into account having to space out for the drive gear.
 
The quill feed on the 2HL is so slow it will be useless for drilling. You would need to use the knee. Unlike a BP where you can plug reverse the head with the drum switch the K&T only runs in "forward". Reverse is down in the gear box and is in no way a quick operation. You have to stop the machine with the clutch and then push/pull the reverse lever. Its best to then manually spin the spindle or float the clutch to be sure its engaged before proceeding. There is no comparison between a BP and the 2HL for milling but its not a machine I would power tap with without a tapping head. You also need to check to verify you have enough Z clearance on the 2HL for what you want to do.
 
The quill feed on the 2HL is so slow it will be useless for drilling. You would need to use the knee. Unlike a BP where you can plug reverse the head with the drum switch the K&T only runs in "forward". Reverse is down in the gear box and is in no way a quick operation. You have to stop the machine with the clutch and then push/pull the reverse lever. Its best to then manually spin the spindle or float the clutch to be sure its engaged before proceeding. There is no comparison between a BP and the 2HL for milling but its not a machine I would power tap with without a tapping head. You also need to check to verify you have enough Z clearance on the 2HL for what you want to do.

I hear what you're saying Mike. I should have clarified my comments. The tapping I did was on another vertical milling machine that had an electrical switch for reversing the direction of the spindle, not on that exact style of machine.

Could you not take the spindle out of gear and then wind it around by hand for smaller taps ? A bit of a ball ache I know but if you were really desperate to tap on the machine.

Regards Tyrone.
 
Could you not take the spindle out of gear and then wind it around by hand for smaller taps ? A bit of a ball ache I know but if you were really desperate to tap on the machine.

Not rigid in a chuck but you could with some sort of clutching / floating mechanism or put a spring loaded center in the spindle and use a tap handle (which I have done on rare occasion), but I think the context of the o.p.'s inquiry was to use a 2HL Vertical to power tap and it's simply not practical on this model.

Mike makes a good point about the clearance on Z. This morning I ran the knee down on mine and when at the bottom there is just a little over 16" clearance without a cutter in the spindle. In the context of tapping, if attempting to use something like a Tapmatic head, you start running out of room fast.

Another thing to consider is if you're wanting to add a DRO to it. That may be difficult unless you can find very low profile scales. Y would be particularly difficult as there are a lot of different mechanisms around the saddle and I don't think you can put a scale on the back of the table for X without it crashing into the column (I have a vise hanging off the back of my table right now so I can't verify the situation there). The graduated handwheels work fine, and especially well if you set up an indicator for critical work, but in this age of convenience that's not some people's cup of tea.
 
Tyrone,

I haven't been able to find the exact tap holder you mentioned but I think I have an idea of what you mean. I believe I will be getting a clutched tap head for one of my drill presses soon.

W_Higgins,

I appreciate the footprint measurements and apologize for the misunderstanding. I get what you're saying now. As for being the smallest and weighing 3000 it still looks pretty bulky. At 3000 pounds I'm hoping for it to be easier to move than my 4000+ pound monarch. I've just taken measurements from the BP head and it seems to be 6 inches from mounting surface to centerline of spindle.

Ohio Mike,

I appreciate your input and helping to understand the process of putting the spindle in reverse. That does seem a bit tedious for any repetitive operation. As for the Z clearance I don't think I will have any problems. As much as I'd like to I don't do very much large work.

Thanks guys.
 
Your Monarch must be little. My Series 60 has a short bed and still weighs 8,000 lbs.!

Attached is a photo to put your BP head conversion into perspective. Let's say you need a 3" spacer on account of the spindle drive gear sticking out of the column, so the BP spindle will be 9" from the swivel head mounting surface -- the plumb bob is hanging where the BP spindle would land and the table is moved all the way toward the operator.
 

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As for being the smallest and weighing 3000 it still looks pretty bulky. At 3000 pounds I'm hoping for it to be easier to move than my 4000+ pound monarch.

I brought home a VanNorman 1R3, approximately 3K+ pounds, with a rented drop deck trailer, rigger's long bar, roller pipes, and a pallet jack, with the seller helping on the buy end and my girlfriend helping on the arrival end. I wouldn't call it relaxing, but it was a whole lot easier than some other machines that I'd moved without the drop-deck trailer or the pallet jack
 
If you want to mount a Bridgeport type head, start with a horizontal mill. Then you have the best of both worlds. Keep in mind the feed force of a real mill is much greater than the rigidity of a Bridgeport knuckle, so caution is advised as to your aggressiveness in feed rates and depth of cut.

And while you are looking for a horizontal, get a Model K (all had factory rear controls), or a Model H with the optional rear controls. This allows you to drive the machine like a small boring mill.

While it would be a lot more expensive, an old style Series II head would be much more in line with the strength/power/rigidity of a K&T or competitive mill.
 
W_Higgins,

She's definitely small compared to those series 60's haha. It's a 12x30 CKK. And at 8000 lbs I'll bet that was a job to move. I appreciate you going out of your way to help and getting all of these measurements for me! I think I agree with you on the BP head conversion not being worthwhile. That is just entirely to much table travel wasted.

Kd1yt,

I appreciate the input. That's pretty much what I had in mind and about the way I would go about doing it except I would be using my double axle trailer with ramps. I believe that's what is really messing me up. But I moved my monarch that way so it shouldn't be to much worse. Just a little more top heavy. It's amazing how easily a machine is moved once it's on rollers and concrete.

Gbent,

I believe I got the idea of a BP head conversion from people who did it to their horizontals. I would think that would be much more versatile than my idea but since I have a lack of experience with horizontals that deters me from even considering it. As far as aggressiveness goes I would say I'm not very aggressive in my machining seeing as how I've only used bridgeport style mills. So it would probably take me a while to use a k&t style mill to its full potential. Ill definitely have to look into those k/h models. I appreciate you chiming in!

Sorry for taking so long to respond back guys!
To wrap this one up I went to inspect the mill today. Unfortunately I wasn't very impressed with its condition. From the pictures it looked to be in great shape. Fresh paint/no visible flaws. Upon up close inspection and operation the spindle bearings sounded terrible. The quill was completely locked down despite my efforts to free it. The handle to control the knee manually was missing. And there was a gear that had to be missing a tooth or two as there was the unmistakable knocking sound that happened in a few speeds but not in others. Not to mention the on off switch wasnt functioning so you had to unplug the machine to turn it off. I can say that all of the feeds/rapids worked. The spindle break operated as it should. And besides the gear/bearing noise it was an all around smooth machine to be from 1944. I believe if it wasn't for the gear/bearing problems and the fact that I think someone did some form of a hack job to get the quill to stay put I would be all over this mill. Because let's be honest these are amazing machines! I've never seen anything like it and ive definitely caught the bug. I'll have to have one of these k&t's one day. If anybody thinks I'm being unreasonable feel free to chime in. I just think there's a bit to much work involved as I need a functioning mill and not another project.

I'm glad we could provide so much information on a mill that doesn't seem to have much documentation out there.
 
Needing a functional mill without have to sort out a lot of problems that wouldn't have been the machine for you.
I already have a functional mill, that's why I picked up my 2HL vertical. It's going to be a lot of work and sourcing parts to maybe if ever get it working.
 








 
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