How to lock the saddle on a 1941 Cincinnati No 2?
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    Default How to lock the saddle on a 1941 Cincinnati No 2?

    I feel pretty foolish asking this but this machine is new to me and I can't figure it out. There's a large lever on the lower right of the knee that locks the knee, there are two hex bolts on the front of the saddle that locks the table. But for the life of me I can't figure out the saddle. I don't see any obvious levers or bolts anywhere.

    I've googled it and checked the manuals and don't see anything useful. Help a newbie brother out

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    Not exactly your mill but check this pic, do you have this lever ?

    56.jpg

    From this brochure:
    Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Cincinnati Dial Type Milling Machine Specifications Brochure | VintageMachinery.org

    the pdf:
    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/19877.pdf

    Edit: Apologies, but I had to edit title for search purposes.

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    I was thinking about it, and that I thought you had pics of that area, in another thread. . .

    Its missing !

    57.jpg

    Pics from this post:
    No power feed or gear changes on 1941 Cincinnati no2 horizontal

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Not exactly your mill but check this pic, do you have this lever ?

    56.jpg

    From this brochure:
    Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Cincinnati Dial Type Milling Machine Specifications Brochure | VintageMachinery.org

    the pdf:
    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/19877.pdf

    Edit: Apologies, but I had to edit title for search purposes.
    LOL I was confused at why the thread title changed, no problem though

    And yes, you are right, apparently it's just plain missing:



    It looks like there's a shaft in there, it's not broken or cut off - I can faintly see some turning marks on the end of it so I'm thinking maybe the shaft is pushed inside? That collar around the outside doesn't appear to have any way to come off either, so I'm guessing it has to be pushed out from the other side (probably necessitating the disassembly of the saddle, ouch). I looked at another newer manual that has exploded parts diagrams and it looks like there's a lever that's just pinned to the shaft, but I'm guessing it's supposed to protrude in order to do so. Guess I don't have a saddle lock LOL. I'm tempted to drill and tap the end of the shaft and see if I can pull it out at least. Weird though, it kinda looks like it's supposed to be that way.

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    It may or may not be broken, I can't tell. But if not broken, I think it may be possible for it to have gone inside.

    Good news. I think a relatively easy job even if you have to make the parts. It is hard to tell from original late 30's parts pic, because the diagram kind of sucks, though parts are there listed as "eccentric".

    The 1953 manual is more clear, probably the one you mentioned. Parts 506 to 510:

    58.jpg

    The end of the shaft, part #506, is eccentric. Or not round, its shaped like a cam lobe. Just turning it will lock it to knee. Maybe why it can be push in ? Its not locking by going in, It locks by cam spinning and pinching knee way.

    Anyway, not sure if handle fell off, or broke off. But Im thinking it won't pull out all the way. If you can get it removed far enough, maybe it just needs the handle. If so just watch how handle is clocked, so you can lock and release.

    Page 96 of pdf, though manual page is 86:
    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/22565.pdf

    Maybe a magnet or super glue the end of a bolt to it, then pull out ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    It may or may not be broken, I can't tell. But if not broken, I think it may be possible for it to have gone inside.

    Good news. I think a relatively easy job even if you have to make the parts. It is hard to tell from original late 30's parts pic, because the diagram kind of sucks, though parts are there listed as "eccentric".

    The 1953 manual is more clear, probably the one you mentioned. Parts 506 to 510:

    58.jpg

    The end of the shaft, part #506, is eccentric. Or not round, its shaped like a cam lobe. Just turning it will lock it to knee. Maybe why it can be push in ? Its not locking by going in, It locks by cam spinning and pinching knee way.

    Anyway, not sure if handle fell off, or broke off. But Im thinking it won't pull out all the way. If you can get it removed far enough, maybe it just needs the handle. If so just watch how handle is clocked, so you can lock and release.

    Page 96 of pdf, though manual page is 86:
    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/22565.pdf

    Maybe a magnet or super glue the end of a bolt to it, then pull out ?
    I'll play around with it tomorrow night, you've got some good ideas. Drilling and tapping it should work but sounds like a PITA. Hell, if it's stuck in there I might just tack weld a piece of scrap onto it to pull it out. Depends on how lazy I'm feeling.

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    Okay, not a great update unfortunately. I was not able to get the shaft out, it would just get stuck no matter what. So I actually managed to push it through the interior side and remove it from the saddle.



    I don't think I'm gonna be able to fix that one LOL. Not only was the shaft sheared off at the other end, but it's also bent which is why I couldn't remove it. The rest of the mechanism is gone (long gone by the looks of it). I'll have to see if I can find someone with a junk mill that could remove this unit for me because I don't even know what the remainder of the parts even look like to recreate them. I guess I'll have no saddle lock for a while

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    I'm not looking at it first hand like you are. But I was thinking of two repairs.

    First one, build it something like was intended. Its basically just a straight shaft with a sort of cam lobe on the end. For the cam lobe to actually lock, I think it would need to begin to lock damn near the peak height of the cam lobe, so that the peak of lobe would be touching ways while pushing straight down vertically on shaft, like a straight 180 degrees straight down, or close to it.

    Might make the cam lobe from a 2nd larger stock than shaft, and either bolt, pin , or weld it onto main shaft. I think very doable, but might need to slide saddle forward enough to install, and some trial and error. Remove cross feed screw maybe, while sorting it out.

    Second potential option. The hole in saddle where we originally saw the end of shaft pushed in. . . Is it possible to tap the end of that hole with some threads, maybe a .5 to .75" deep ? If so, tap the hole and make a bolt/shaft with a brass or bronze insert on interior end.

    You wont be locking saddle from same direction as original eccentric shaft. You're going to lock by basically running a bolt straight in. Brass/bronze tip keeps from scarring anything. Shaft and hole are only threaded toward the outside edge of the hole.

    Just possibilities anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I'm not looking at it first hand like you are. But I was thinking of two repairs.

    First one, build it something like was intended. Its basically just a straight shaft with a sort of cam lobe on the end. For the cam lobe to actually lock, I think it would need to begin to lock damn near the peak height of the cam lobe, so that the peak of lobe would be touching ways while pushing straight down vertically on shaft, like a straight 180 degrees straight down, or close to it.

    Might make the cam lobe from a 2nd larger stock than shaft, and either bolt, pin , or weld it onto main shaft. I think very doable, but might need to slide saddle forward enough to install, and some trial and error. Remove cross feed screw maybe, while sorting it out.

    Second potential option. The hole in saddle where we originally saw the end of shaft pushed in. . . Is it possible to tap the end of that hole with some threads, maybe a .5 to .75" deep ? If so, tap the hole and make a bolt/shaft with a brass or bronze insert on interior end.

    You wont be locking saddle from same direction as original eccentric shaft. You're going to lock by basically running a bolt straight in. Brass/bronze tip keeps from scarring anything. Shaft and hole are only threaded toward the outside edge of the hole.

    Just possibilities anyway.
    Those are some really good ideas. I think tapping it and using a soft-tipped bolt that presses up against the casting just above the cross-feed screw is probably the easiest. Making a cam is a good idea but it seems like it'd be tricky to figure out exactly the right size and shape that works and locks at just the right point. I'd have to take apart that "box" that's just under the shaft, where the splined power feed shaft comes in from the right and take a look from the bottom-up and see what I see in there. In the meantime I've got some feelers out to see if I can source the original parts (or at least see what they looked like/measurements/etc).

    Not a huge deal at the moment, the machine seems to cut great without a saddle clamp for the time being. On my BP, if the saddle isn't locked it likes to walk a little on heavy cuts, doesn't seem like it's happening with this machine (or maybe I'm not taking heavy enough cuts, I've tried 2.5" WOC .300" DOC with a facemill and 1"x1" with a HSS rougher, both in mild steel).

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    Try Cincinnati Mill Parts l Kearney & Trecker Parts l Machine Replacement Parts

    They sell parts for Cincinnatti mills, they were able to provide me with a new feed dial for my #2ML...

    They seem to be good folks to work with... they sell used parts and also make many new parts.

    -Bear

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    Quote Originally Posted by 682bear View Post
    Try Cincinnati Mill Parts l Kearney & Trecker Parts l Machine Replacement Parts

    They sell parts for Cincinnatti mills, they were able to provide me with a new feed dial for my #2ML...

    They seem to be good folks to work with... they sell used parts and also make many new parts.

    -Bear
    I agree! They're actually the ones that got me the broken saddle feed screw coupler and saved me a ton of work.

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    Ended up getting an original shaft + cam from Partsnparts (great place). Now I've got to make a handle for it and figure out how to install it. So many things to do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dope View Post
    Ended up getting an original shaft + cam from Partsnparts (great place). Now I've got to make a handle for it and figure out how to install it. So many things to do!
    If you don't mind posting a pic, I'd like to see the cam. The machines not in front of me, but I had been running through my head how I'd sort out the shape of it. So I'm a bit curious to see the real deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    If you don't mind posting a pic, I'd like to see the cam. The machines not in front of me, but I had been running through my head how I'd sort out the shape of it. So I'm a bit curious to see the real deal.
    Here you go buddy:







    It's actually not what I thought it was going to be, I thought it would be sort of a pointed cam (an oblong shape I guess?). Like a lobe on a camshaft for an internal combustion engine. Instead, it's a perfectly round section of the shaft that's been turned slightly eccentrically. Kinda hard to see, it's so slight. I guess that would have been pretty easy to accomplish, had I known what it looked like.

    Actually pretty interesting how it got broken off, someone must have engaged the power feed with the lock engaged, or it crashed into something? It's a solid 3/4" shaft, that couldn't have been easy. Then again, that "safety coupler" was broken at the end of the saddle feed screw so maybe both things broke at the same time, for the same reason. Must have made a hell of a noise!

    Also interesting to me that there isn't a center at either end of the shaft. Makes me wonder how they made it.

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    In the parts pic it was round, but it wasn't clearly defined to really know, imo.

    I was thinking maybe it had something of a flat edge near peak for better contact, that might allow for wear. Guess I was wrong there.

    Appreciate the pics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dope View Post
    Also interesting to me that there isn't a center at either end of the shaft. Makes me wonder how they made it.
    Not at all difficult. Been using offset rounds as lever-locking mechanism on production line workholding fixtures since forever-ago. Easier to make than "profiled" cams.

    They probably fixtured a collet-block. You probably have what you need, already, too.

    Ex:

    One-each 5C key-cranker, one-each ER-40, as "plate mount" here, in addition to the D1-3 units, plus both hex and square 5C and ER40 collet-blocks for similar needs.

    Grab one in a 4J, set-off for the desired eccentricity.

    Collet, not 4-J, then holds and repeats the same offset for "n" count of parts. Vanilla turning op. No profile or flat required.

    You want to do it the complicated way? Eccentric in the middle of a loooong shaft?

    Somebody else already needed THAT, too:

    Adjusta-Point Live Centers | Riten.com

    Turn a center, other end, offset it same amount at the HS and go make puppies.
    "Cup" centers fit at either end, same as conventional points do. Way faster than collet-blocks or key-cranker, but Riten don't work for free!

    Ga-ron-tee my way is cheaper to tool for if the O/A length is modest and you ain't being beat-up for cycle-time.

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    All right so, I figured I might as well post an update about my misadventures in making a working saddle lock.

    So I decided to see if I could insert the shaft from inside the saddle instead of removing the entire table and saddle. I really didn't want to go through the effort, plus I have a very large sine plate installed on the table with a large and heavy workpiece on it currently. Really not interested in spending two days tearing the machine down and putting it back together. Anyway, no go - it's close but the casting has a curvature to it in the "ceiling" of this little alcove where the shaft goes. So I said screw it, I'm just gonna grind down the low point of the eccentric section so that I can insert the shaft, then rotate it so the high side of the eccentric faces upwards. There is a small section of exposed gib where the eccentric portion can contact so I figured it'd all work out.







    Turns out - nope. The damn shaft wasn't long enough! It inserts but the end of the shaft is roughly level with the outside of the casting - no place to attach a handle. So this shaft must be from a very similar machine but with slightly different dimensions (maybe a smaller machine like a 2MH).

    So when I ordered the shaft, they offered me a second one for an extra $50, so I took it. Turns out, it's slightly different. Same OAL but the eccentric portion is shorter, meaning the shaft will stick out about .375" when inserted. That should be enough for me to get a keyway or tapered hole on it. So I did the same thing, ground down the low point of the eccentric portion and it fits and sticks out just enough.



    Only problem? It does not contact the gib at any point when rotating it. It's super close, I'd say within .005-.010. I also tried the original shaft and had the same problem. DOH!

    So now I'm back at the drawing board. I figure since I've already hack-jobbed this, I may as well go all the way. I figure I'll build up the high point of the eccentric with a little weld or braze, then do something similar to what thermite mentioned and turn it down again. Probably a collet block, offset it and turn it down to a slightly larger dimension. Not really sure what dimension I'll go with, maybe start with something like .030" over and keep test fitting it until I feel like it'll lock securely. THEN make a handle and attachment method for it.

    Interestingly enough, the second shaft did have centers in both ends, so they switched manufacturing methods at some point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dope View Post
    Interestingly enough, the second shaft did have centers in both ends, so they switched manufacturing methods at some point.
    Old jigs and fixtures for all-manual machines may be gone in favour of G-Code on a CNC critter doing onesies only when one is ordered?

    Can you not make a TWO PIECE substitute with extended end for actuating wrench/handle . One that telescopically joins inside the cavity?

    So long as.. the actuator is on the same end as the cam, the REST of the shaft has leverage against tilt and doesn't carry a huge ration of torque.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Old jigs and fixtures for all-manual machines may be gone in favour of G-Code on a CNC critter doing onesies only when one is ordered?

    Can you not make a TWO PIECE substitute with extended end for actuating wrench/handle . One that telescopically joins inside the cavity?

    So long as.. the actuator is on the same end as the cam, the REST of the shaft has leverage against tilt and doesn't carry a huge ration of torque.
    Huh, I hadn't thought of that, that's an interesting idea. I had the fleeting idea of making two pieces that screwed together, with lots of red loctite but I'm open to other suggestions. Never done anything like that before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dope View Post
    Huh, I hadn't thought of that, that's an interesting idea. I had the fleeting idea of making two pieces that screwed together, with lots of red loctite but I'm open to other suggestions. Never done anything like that before.
    Easier if yah have a length of Grob spline stock lying around.. but square tube, square rod.. .. allthread & coupler.....

    OEM did what made sense for OEM. You only have the one to do, so whatever gets the job done.

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