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  1. #41
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    Thanks Ben, I read that thread on the spindle last night, and looked at the pics. Pics showed me that pulling spindle should be fairly easy, in my mind it seemed like it might be a bit more complicated lol.

    How did your bearings turn out? I'm hoping mine just need crap cleaned out of them, hoping I get lucky....

    Concerning bearings, I looked up precision bearings last night, at $700+ for the top bearing that ain't happening, I did find a class 2 bearing at an affordable price, any opinions on why/why not to use that if my top bearing is toast?

  2. #42
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    Being that I was unsuccessful in the scrap hunt this morning, I decided to open up spindle housing and start the bearing removal. Top bearing lifted out no problem, but I'm pretty sure now that bearings are the least of my problems, the ring and pinion gears are both fubar, not a little bit fubar, I'm pretty sure it is fubared enough that new gears are required.

    I see the 2 locking collars on either side of ring gear, loosened set screws, but so far no movement on either collar. I am assuming collars are threaded, and RH thread, do I slowly undo those collars and work spindle out of front housing? Or do I undo the cap on spindle working end and pull it all out? Or do I remove whole spindle housing and work from there? I'll go look at Ben's post and pics again.

    Does anyone know of replacement ring and pinion gears, or is this a death knell?

    Still no word from yahoo group.

    Edit: Looks like locking collars should un-screw towards top of spindle, I'll go give that a try.

  3. #43
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    I have no idea how wide or deep their parts inventory is, or what the prices would be like if they have the gears (places like this can't charge discount prices, as they have to hold the stuff for a long time, sell to a very limited market, and their inventory moves in only one direction) but:

    "MER has aquired all the drawings/blue prints, manuals and parts catalogs for the Van Norman machine tool line. If you need a part or have a question about the Van Norman machines, we have the answers and the parts you're seeking. If you need your Van Norman serviced or rebuilt call MER today. MER also has the machine manuals and instructions, call for a copy today!"

    Van Norman (OEM) - Machine Equipment Repair

    With some parts in some machines, especially straight cut gears, people have been able to source stock items from Boston Gear, etc., though sometimes having to rework to a larger bore, different keyway or splines pattern, etc. I have no idea whether that luck would extend as readily to ring/pinion situations, but...

    Also, Cal has mentioned that at least some substantial parts of the gear train of the 1R3- at least the transmission- overlap a lot with some of the later variations of the plain-numbered machines, though I don't remember the details (apparently the "12" and "16" each had varying subtypes over the vintages).

    Finally, how fubar is fubar? The machine must've been in use at some point during its descent into fubar-hood. How extensive or demanding is your intended use? These things are overbuilt to an extreme. That said, I don't know anything about the metallurgy of the gearing and whether the gears would have been surface-hardened or through-hardened; if they are chewed up down to softer inner material, they'd continue to go downhill fast.

    Makes ya wonder what kinda knucklehead knows enough to be able to produce parts with one of these but is so out to lunch that they could mess up the dis & re-assembly and operation as bad as what it sounds like you are encountering. My KRW press when I got it looked like it had been in some similar machine-torure gulag, though thankfully there was enough there for me to refurb and have work well, for my needs.

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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebencarter View Post
    The lower end seal closest to the spindle nose is marked 'J-M' and '5355'. My upper seal was a bit crusty but seems to be marked 'J-M' and '5627 P0'

    I added photos with these markings to my spindle pull photos album.
    thanks Ben!

  6. #45
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    Spindle is out, for future reference to anyone else, set spindle in horizontal position, loosen top/left locking collar, you may need to insert a tool holder into spindle so you have something to hold to keep spindle from turning. Unscrew collar as far as possible, having someone else turn the spindle while you hold collar is easiest. Remove screws holding cap onto bottom of spindle housing and slowly pull spindle out until you can unscrew collar far enough that you can slide gear to left and clear the 2 keys, remove keys, then unscrew the bottom/right collar, if you used a tool holder to hold shaft, remove it and drawbar now, pull spindle out.

    Gears are seriously fubar, I see no option but replace, if something can be found. Considering all the pieces of the gears were not inside housing, someone knew the extent of the problem and just put it back together to sell
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1r3-15.jpg   1r3-19.jpg   1r3-20.jpg  

  7. #46
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    Wow, that is awful. I'm really sorry to see such critical pieces in such poor condition, and I have to think you're right - if there isn't a ton of gear detritus in the housing, someone must have drained it, cleaned it out and put it back together after realizing what they were up against. That's really shady and a terrible thing to do to the next owner. How do the bearings look? From what little I can see, the top race looks pretty clean, cleaner than mine was and I ended up with only a few tenths runout.

    I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions other than this: clean and repack the bearings then put it all back, set the gear lash carefully and let it run because what do you have to lose? Only a few hours of your time for disassembly and reassembly, from my view. Here's my guess as to what happened - you said the shaft endplay/bearing clearance set by the top collar (or bearing preload, which is not recommended on a VN) was way too loose, i.e. you could wiggle the spindle. That bearing preload interacts with how the gears are held (or not) against each other and the gear lash, or the play between the gears. Looks like somebody ran it in that way-too-loose condition for a long while, letting the spindle bounce around, the gears getting too far apart and having too much pressure for the very tips of the teeth to hold together. The utter consistency (as it appears in the picture) of the big ring gear's teeth all having a haircut while leaving the rest of the tooth intact is something I've never seen before, but may offer you some hope as there's still some meat left on the gear teeth. Same thing for the pinion gear - the entire gear width should have been engaged, but it looks like it's mating with the ring gear was mis-set by many fractions of an inch.

    That kind of negligence is pretty unbelievable. At the same time, I think you'd actually do OK if you put it back together with care. If it breaks sometime down the road, perhaps by then you'll have found a line on a replacement gear set, maybe even for a good price by watching places like ebay and waiting. Otherwise I imagine these big helical gears won't come cheap as it won't be a stock item and commissioning them may cost a small fortune.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kd1yt View Post
    I have no idea how wide or deep their parts inventory is, or what the prices would be like if they have the gears (places like this can't charge discount prices, as they have to hold the stuff for a long time, sell to a very limited market, and their inventory moves in only one direction) but:

    "MER has aquired all the drawings/blue prints, manuals and parts catalogs for the Van Norman machine tool line. If you need a part or have a question about the Van Norman machines, we have the answers and the parts you're seeking. If you need your Van Norman serviced or rebuilt call MER today. MER also has the machine manuals and instructions, call for a copy today!"

    Van Norman (OEM) - Machine Equipment Repair

    ...
    According to this link: RPI got rid of most/all Van Norman parts, and there is confusion over the blueprints
    most of RPI's Van Norman parts went to scrap. It's good to know that at least the drawings were preserved.

    Cal

  9. #48
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    Took a look at Boston gear selection, ratio on these gears is 1.8:1 which they do not carry. They do have 2:1 ratio and that is pretty close, whether or not I can make that work, IDK, might be pushing the limits of my pay grade. Anyone here have more experience in swapping/modifying gears? I have dimensions of the used gears and can direct you to what I'm looking at in the BG catalog.

    As for putting it back together with fubar gears, I just can't see doing it, A. I'd be leary using it and B. at that point I'd be best pawning it off to some other poor schmuck, and i don't want to be that person.

  10. #49
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    Gear dimensions, the dimensions in parenthesis are new gear dimensions.

    Small/Pinion Gear
    Pitch Dia 2.680 (2.125)
    Face .640 (.710)
    Hub dia 1.810 (1.88)
    Bore .875 (.750)
    D 1.125 (1.677)
    Hub proj .350 (.940)
    Teeth 25 (17)

    Large/Ring Gear
    Pitch dia 4.470 (4.250)
    Face .700 (.710)
    Hub dia 2.565 (2.880)
    Bore 1.685 (1,250)
    D 2.400 (1.575)
    Hub proj 1.570 (1.06)
    Teeth 45 (34)

    Gears I am looking at are Spiral Bevel gears, Pinion Cat# SS82-P, Item# 11920 and Ring gear Cat#SS82-G, Item# 11918.

    I know I can resize bores and diameters, but the smaller diameter of ring gear has me wondering if I can get pinion to match up correctly, and the shorter length of D on ring gear would most likely requires a spacer or two.

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    Using it as-is certainly isn't an attractive choice, but you stated your use is for hobby use, so I figured you can afford to "go easy" on the machine and/or have downtime if it eventually breaks. I wasn't sure you'd want to sink money into new gears for a $250 machine that, if it has suffered this kind of abuse, may have other problems. I would inspect the main transmission (pop the larger top cover off - you'll have to re-time the shifters, but it's not too hard), all of the powerfeed transmission components, and take a look at the ways and leadscrews before taking the plunge.

    I am not knowledgeable about gears but had the same concerns you did when reading the specs - the smaller ring gear diameter must mean the pinion would have to "stick out" farther in order to properly mate with the ring gear, and I'm not sure if that would work or not - I guess you could have the last 1/4" or so of the pinion sticking off the end of the shaft without much consequence. With the length "D" of the ring gear being nearly an inch shorter, you'll definitely need a spacer as the range of adjustment of the threaded collars isn't that long. The pinion is also half an inch smaller in pitch diameter so the ring gear would have to be closer to the spindle nose by at least 1/4"; hopefully there is enough thread on the nose/lower-end collar to allow you to push the ring gear forward by that much.

    I have to say these hopefully-suitable gears are more available and cheaper than I expected. I noticed they are unhardened, but I doubt you'd ever wear them out as they run in the oil bath.

  12. #51
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    I suggest you PM Zahnrad Kopf ("Gear Head" in German) who is a long-time PM contributor and makes custom gears. He often has creative ideas about solving gear problems. Zahnrad Kopf

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    Ben
    I just cannot see even trying to reuse the old gears, they are just too far gone in my opinion. Hobby/small town shop, its a fine line, technically I am retired, but honestly, I have been a cog in the gear train that keeps the world turning daily, and not quite ready to give that position up, it has become part of my identity.

    I am going to hook machine to power this evening and see if the rest of it works, if there are more problems I may just have to be the reaper. Searched ebay for those gears last night, nothing currently available. Found one on Amazon, it ain't cheap. Gave some serious thought on how to do this last night and concluded building a fixture to hold gears is the answer. Length of the shaft pinion rides on cannot be changed, so I would have to recess face of pinion to get the nut back on shaft, assuming that can be done, I can do this. Selection of un-hardened gears was because they would need machining, but later noticed that mfr states only gear teeth are hardened, so I can use either. Need to hit old gears with a file, pretty sure they are hard.

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  16. #53
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    It may be possible to use gears from other Van Norman cutter-heads. Your ring-gear is Van Norman part number 14-654-C. The cutter-head for the No. 16M used ring-gear 14-654 (no suffix). (Not sure how the two parts differ, the key-ways are probably different, based on the drawings.) The No. 16L used the same cutter-head as the 16M and it's ring-gear (14-666) will fit on a 16M spindle. The No. 16 (not to be confused with the No. 16L/M/S) used a splined spindle, instead of keyways, so it's out. I did a quick check of the ring-gear for a 1943 vintage No. 12 and it's not even close to the dimensions that you listed; I didn't count the teeth, but the ID is smaller and it's a shorter gear, so it might be possible to modify one to fit. No. 12 parts are certainly more plentiful than those for a No. 16L, 16M, or 1R.

    Cal

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  18. #54
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    Connected to power this evening, ran spindle motor in all speeds and it seemed fine, shifted smoothly, no strange noises. Feed kind of works, but there are a few issues. L/R selector knob is somewhat off, neutral for feed is not centered on the detent. To stop travel it needs to be turned to the left, when turning selector to right it starts to engage, but does not. Feed rate box will not shift into C, gears are not clashing, lever just stops and will not travel further.

    Weighing my options on gears, nothing on ebay, does anyone know of a machinery boneyard?

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    Where bearings are concerned , get a cross reference of matching USA made bearing numbers and search ebay. There is a lot of new / old stock bearings out there. I saved a couple thousand rebuilding the gearboxes on my skid steer.
    You will get it worked out.

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    Did some more digging for gears last night and found a closer match from Arrow Gears

    Small/Pinion Gear
    Pitch Dia 2.680 (2.457)
    Face .640 (.8125)
    Hub dia 1.810 (1.750)
    Bore .875 (.875)
    D 1.125 (1.000)
    Hub proj .350 (.1875)
    Teeth 25 (18)

    Large/Ring Gear
    Pitch dia 4.470 (4.518)
    Face .700 (.8125)
    Hub dia 2.565 (2.500)
    Bore 1.685 (1.325)
    D 2.400 (1.375)
    Hub proj 1.570 (.5625)
    Teeth 45 (36)

    The main place these fall short is the D dimension which is length of bore, and at $580 for the set, it does not fall into category of inexpensive.

    Sent out a couple of RFQ's on custom gears this morning, I am honestly afraid to see the quotes, but who knows, maybe they are reasonable. I think I could get BG gears to work, but it sure would suck to buy them, spend hours modifying and test fitting, only to find out it won't work.

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    Wish you were closer. I'd just make you a deal on my metric 1R-3 for less than what it looks like you are going to invest in parts.

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    Spiral bevel gears matching or similar to OE would be best for intense sustained use, but since you do not anticipate intense sustained use, might straight bevel gears 'get you by' and maybe with increased options &/or at substantially less cost? I realize that there could be reasons weighing against that option/function that I may not be aware of.

  23. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    It may be possible to use gears from other Van Norman cutter-heads. Your ring-gear is Van Norman part number 14-654-C. The cutter-head for the No. 16M used ring-gear 14-654 (no suffix). (Not sure how the two parts differ, the key-ways are probably different, based on the drawings.) The No. 16L used the same cutter-head as the 16M and it's ring-gear (14-666) will fit on a 16M spindle. The No. 16 (not to be confused with the No. 16L/M/S) used a splined spindle, instead of keyways, so it's out. I did a quick check of the ring-gear for a 1943 vintage No. 12 and it's not even close to the dimensions that you listed; I didn't count the teeth, but the ID is smaller and it's a shorter gear, so it might be possible to modify one to fit. No. 12 parts are certainly more plentiful than those for a No. 16L, 16M, or 1R.

    Cal
    There is a guy on ebay parting out a VN No 38 and he has the ring and pinion gears still, any insight on those gears?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kd1yt View Post
    Spiral bevel gears matching or similar to OE would be best for intense sustained use, but since you do not anticipate intense sustained use, might straight bevel gears 'get you by' and maybe with increased options &/or at substantially less cost? I realize that there could be reasons weighing against that option/function that I may not be aware of.
    My only thought is that it might induce vibration, but yes I have considered that option, I'll look at chart and see what is available.

    Edit: Anyone want to throw in their 2 cents on use of straight cut gears? It certainly is a more affordable option.


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