K&T 2D Collet Holder Removal?
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  1. #1
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    Default K&T 2D Collet Holder Removal?

    So after taking a forced break from slowly learning and working with my 2D due to hectic out of town work schedules... I discovered a thread here that I somehow had overlooked in prior late night research sessions. A gentleman asked John and Ramsay about removing a either a collet or a collet holder that was stuck in his 2D. I'm having a similar problem....

    First off it's been how many years since I first started posting about my 2D here and I just now had that "Ah-HA!" moment where I realized that there was a collet holder in the first place. At least one that was able to be removed. Chalk it up to having a better understanding of things now than I did before. Slowly but surely! Anyway. I have decided that I wanted to try my hand at making a new nut to hold a newer 30 taper collet holder... problem being that the left hand nut and every thing that seems to be displayed in the manuals and the pictures I've been looking at are missing from my machine. The "collet draw in rod" seems to have slipped down. This was all done prior to me owning the machine. I'm just hoping that nothing was destroyed when this occurred. How does one go about either getting this rod back out? How does one go about removing the collet holder at this point. I'm at a slight impasse. Unfortunately I still have so much to learn about this machine that I'm gun shy trying too much. Because there aren't exactly replacements out there I'd rather be too careful that not careful enough.

    Thanks for your continued help and support gents!!

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    Last edited by Scuffy; 03-12-2019 at 07:08 PM. Reason: Forgot to add the pictures!

  2. #2
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    I'd guess you are looking at the spindle drive - since it has splines. This would move up and down with the quill travel

    Are we supposed to see something else?

    As to "collet holder", my "newer" (1968) was a RH threads in one of these "closure nuts"

    No draw bar at all by then
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dcp_0221.jpg  

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  4. #3
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    Collet draw in rod is for the machine which uses B3 Bridgeport collets.. Your machine obviously does not use this type of collet.. My 1942 mill has a hollow spindle as it originally used the b3 collet but now uses R8 collets...Your machine uses the more common double angle collet hence the solid spindle ..Ramsay

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    John- the quill is retracted as far as it will go and the splined shaft still sits almost an inch and a half down, into the pulley. In pictures in other threads the splined shaft seems to stick up what looks like 3 inches above the pulley. Or at least it sure looks like it. I was just worried that maybe the splined shaft had dropped too far and had damaged something. (I have not noticed anything that would denote any problems- binding or anything locked up) If that's not the case, then how does one go about removing the stock 30 taper collet holder. I'm a bit confused on that part. Do I just tap GENTLY downward on the splined shaft with a brass or dead blow hammer?

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    img_20190310_210605910.jpg

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    img_20190310_210501456.jpg

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    Fairly sure there is no drawbar of any kind - just looking at your photos

    If that is a 30 taper collet (1.250 largest diameter) you have no removable collet holder. You are looking at end of spindle

    Thumbnails show what they came up with later to fit in the 30 taper spindle - a doo dad that held 20 taper collets

    (If you had a bunch of these you could have quite a fancy set up - all quick change dropping thru that special nut)

    The doo dad is held in by the dedicated closure nut (my photo above) and the 20 taper holder has its own smaller nut

    The nut in your photos is exclusively for 30 taper collets

    None of this stuff is made anymore, so good luck.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dcp_0218.jpg   dcp_0219.jpg   dcp_0220.jpg  

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    Ohhhhh.... Well that's not what I was hoping to hear. Come back when you have something better to tell me! Kidding, only kidding!!

    So is there still an option of adapting a 30 taper ER style collet holder to this and making a new nut or is it pretty much out of the question?

    While yes, anything is possible with enough money, skill and dedication... I am looking at something just a small bit easier than "impossible"

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    Buy one and see what needs to be done - then do it. Likely have to use the notched nut idea (the first photo I posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scuffy View Post
    Ohhhhh.... Well that's not what I was hoping to hear. Come back when you have something better to tell me! Kidding, only kidding!!

    So is there still an option of adapting a 30 taper ER style collet holder to this and making a new nut or is it pretty much out of the question?

    While yes, anything is possible with enough money, skill and dedication... I am looking at something just a small bit easier than "impossible"

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    Okay, sounds like a plan. I appreciate the help John! You and Ramsay have been a wealth of information for me over the past few years. I really, sincerely appreciate it!!! Thank you!

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    If you’re patient and keep an eye out, K&T #30 collets are out there but the smaller size #20 are almost impossible to find. I’m missing 9/16” & 3/4” in size #30. If you have an extra, I have an extra 5/8” and 1/2” I’d be willing to trade.

    I was using the 2D tonight. I needed a nut for the new P&W tool post. The 2D is my go to for damn near everything. Either you remember all the geometry and trig you learned throughout the years or your dead in the water..... The 2D is completely useless without it.

    Andy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 6e6e507a-c40e-4e81-b7a8-4a4a171b725e.jpg   f6e57d40-c4a2-41a8-aa46-dbaa0dca17af.jpg   bb8f50de-5f2b-4b3f-8fe0-f1a158f89f92.jpg  
    Last edited by Hobby Shop; 03-13-2019 at 06:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuffy View Post
    Okay, sounds like a plan. I appreciate the help John! You and Ramsay have been a wealth of information for me over the past few years. I really, sincerely appreciate it!!! Thank you!
    Nice PDF of "doo dad" drawing on VM. Your adapter will need most of the left end verbatim. They sort of leave out the "neck" diameter - but its .936 less a bit (from end view)

    j


    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2098/18384.pdf

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    This is one reason I bought the machine I have.. Not that I am a big fan of R8 tooling, but the spindle in my machine had been at some point opened up to receive R8 tooling which is very common and cheap....Some 2d machines were sold with B3 Bridgeport tooling and I suspect that mine was one of them....Good luck with the collets and tooling.. I once sold some collets as I had no use for them.. They may come up on Ebay now and then but today they know what they are selling and it might take a king's ransom to get them.. Cheers; Ramsay 1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuffy View Post
    Ohhhhh.... Well that's not what I was hoping to hear. Come back when you have something better to tell me! Kidding, only kidding!!

    So is there still an option of adapting a 30 taper ER style collet holder to this and making a new nut or is it pretty much out of the question?

    While yes, anything is possible with enough money, skill and dedication... I am looking at something just a small bit easier than "impossible"
    I found six of the 20 taper collets on Ebay about six months ago. $18 dollars for the lot. The seller listed as Kearney trecker but not ID'd as 2d specific. I got lucky. 4 metric and 2 std. I started typing a thread to post on PM. Then thought what the hell am I doing.
    You can set up an Ebay search and get notified when somthing comes up.
    Johnoder's explanation of collets was spot on.
    If someone with a cylindrical grinder got set up to modify an existing collet type to make sets I think money could be made. Although many owners are small shops or hobby and costs could be more than they would pay. There are 2d mills without any tooling.
    Ongoing subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    I found six of the 20 taper collets on Ebay about six months ago. $18 dollars for the lot. The seller listed as Kearney trecker but not ID'd as 2d specific. I got lucky. 4 metric and 2 std. I started typing a thread to post on PM. Then thought what the hell am I doing.
    You can set up an Ebay search and get notified when somthing comes up.
    Johnoder's explanation of collets was spot on.
    If someone with a cylindrical grinder got set up to modify an existing collet type to make sets I think money could be made. Although many owners are small shops or hobby and costs could be more than they would pay. There are 2d mills without any tooling.
    Ongoing subject.
    The 20 collets go with the universal milling head I think.. I could be wrong about that as I use none of it with mine.. Ramsay 1

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsay1 View Post
    The 20 collets go with the universal milling head I think.. I could be wrong about that as I use none of it with mine.. Ramsay 1
    John posted pictures of the adapter(s) in post 5. Theres a #30 to #20 adapter that the 2D uses for collets 1/2” down to 1/16”. I’ll check to see what the milling head uses tonight. Tri-D also uses the #20 collets. March 4th an adapter and (6) #20 collets sold on eBay for $75.

    #30 collets go from 1/2”-3/4” by 1/16”s
    #20 collets go from 1/16”-1/2” by 1/16”s.

    On Edit:
    Ramsay1. the universal head does take the #20 collets.
    Last edited by Hobby Shop; 03-13-2019 at 06:34 PM. Reason: Added info

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  21. #15
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    Sutton Tool made them awhile. Way back when I had the 2D I got a lot of NOS Sutton 20 for $40

    Alas, Sutton went away

    Here I am making elegant holes in rusty plate (which became part of the cart for the 30" P&W Rotary Table)

    (The BIG knurled nut is on the spindle nose, the LITTLE knurled nut is on the adapter)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dcp_0686.jpg  

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    Cool 2D K&T Drawbar and Collets

    If you have a machine with a drawbar, it looks like this:

    Hope this clears up all the confusion.. My machine uses R8 collets now but I suspect it originally used B3 collets....Ramsay 1
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2d-drawbar.jpg   r8-2d.jpg  

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    I just did the exact same thing as John did last weekend with mine. I made some exhaust pipe flanges for an antique Chrysler. Bored the center hole, then offset the head some more and drilled a bolt hole pattern all in one setup. Hard to do that with a bridgeport!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuffy View Post
    Ohhhhh.... Well that's not what I was hoping to hear. Come back when you have something better to tell me! Kidding, only kidding!!

    So is there still an option of adapting a 30 taper ER style collet holder to this and making a new nut or is it pretty much out of the question?

    While yes, anything is possible with enough money, skill and dedication... I am looking at something just a small bit easier than "impossible"
    I have a full set of 30 and 20 taper collets and the closure nuts. But I wanted to use some facemills and er collets. I bought qc30 tools from Gloster Tooling in the uk. I then made a new closure nut on my lathe and the 2D, along with a couple of spindle drive keys. Now I exclusively use QC30 tooling, I have shell mill holders, ER32 collet, JT taper for a Chuck, MT2 to drive some reamers. I have a drawing that I produced in Fusion 360 for the QC closure nut.

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    Willing to share that Fusion file? I have oodles of QC30 tooling, and have often considered altering my 2D to take them. Just never sat down and measured everything.

    If that were to happen, I have a pretty good pile of 30 taper collets, 20 taper holders and collets, that would be on the market as soon as it was finished. I use my 2D on a regular basis in my business, it would be nice to not have to mess about as much with the collets.


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