K & T 2D, downfeed inop, what to do?
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  1. #1
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    Default K & T 2D, downfeed inop, what to do?

    No downfeed working on this otherwise nice, working 2D. Quill is all the way “up” and won’t budge, but on power feed, the crank goes round and round at whatever feed speed/direction selected. With feed direction lever in neutral, feed crank can be rotated by hand in either direction, but quill doesn’t move at all. Quill can’t be moved by pressure on top or bottom of it. It is like the quill is totally disconnected from the downfeed mechanisms, both manual and power. Since quill is all the way up, maybe the limit cam disconnected it? I’ve played with that linkage, shown in the pix, but no luck.

    John Morris has shared 4 photos with you! | Flickr

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    Been way too many years - but isn't there a quill binder at bottom of the non moving "quill holder"

    Its in the form of a ring nut as I recall. The "manual" refers to this as Item #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    Been way too many years - but isn't there a quill binder at bottom of the non moving "quill holder"

    Its in the form of a ring nut as I recall. The "manual" refers to this as Item #53
    Thx John, yes, big nut with vertical spanner slots. I loosened it up so quill would be free to move so that’s not the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cannonmn View Post
    Thx John, yes, big nut with vertical spanner slots. I loosened it up so quill would be free to move so that’s not the issue.
    Got out the replacement parts book for this model and it is now obvious that the quill feed clutch is slipping. The op manual says clutch is adjusted at factory so don’t bother it but if it is broke I gotta fix it.

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    Try the clutch nut #57.. It is loosened for use of the cherrying attachment thereby releasing it from the feed mechanism...Avoid disassembly of that quill feed mechanism as it is a pandora's box.. I know first had from replacing the "ducking key".. Cheers; Ramsay 1
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsay1 View Post
    Try the clutch nut #57.. It is loosened for use of the cherrying attachment thereby releasing it from the feed mechanism...Avoid disassembly of that quill feed mechanism as it is a pandora's box.. I know first had from replacing the "ducking key".. Cheers; Ramsay 1
    Thanks. Sounds like you may have the correct manual for my mill. My manual is for a different s/n range with slightly different head detail, but important details when it needs fixed. I’ll post pic of the quill page and u can see how it differed from what’s shown in the pix I posted.

    John Morris has shared 3 photos with you! | Flickr

    Maybe some way I could see a few pages of your manual?

    I loosened and tightened the clutch nut and at one position you can’t turn the quill feed crank at all, at another it turns easily but isn’t making anything else happen. Going around the corner of that steel box to the right there’s a small round plate with a setscrew in middle. Turning that setscrew runs it in and out about 1/4 in., and has similar effects on crank, crank is frozen at one screw pos, but free wheels at another. Quill never moves during these experiments.
    Last edited by Cannonmn; 12-29-2020 at 09:47 PM. Reason: Add

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    Sounds like the quill is stuck or maybe the quill lock ring #53 on the end has not released for some reason....With nut #57 tight, the quill should move up and down with the crank and by power... You do have the cherrying attachment removed right? Kearney & Trecker Co. - Publication Reprints - Model 2D Rotary Head Milling Machine - Operator Manual | VintageMachinery.org

    Cheers; Ramsay 1

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsay1 View Post
    Sounds like the quill is stuck or maybe the quill lock ring #53 on the end has not released for some reason....With nut #57 tight, the quill should move up and down with the crank and by power... You do have the cherrying attachment removed right? Kearney & Trecker Co. - Publication Reprints - Model 2D Rotary Head Milling Machine - Operator Manual | VintageMachinery.org

    Cheers; Ramsay 1
    Thx, yes cherrying att. Is off. I’ve had big quill lock nut completely off but will try more lube and a bit of heat on quill casing to see if stuck quill could be the case. I’m thinking crank would be frozen if quill being frozen was the case, but quill feed crank moves with no resistance at all when nut and setecrew, previously discussed, are in certain positions.

    When the two adjustments mentioned are set as they were when I got the mill, the quill crank is firmly connected to motor and gear train meant to power it during power feed, BUT it seems crank etc. are totally disconnected from quill. Switch quill feed lever from neutral to “down” and crank twirls merrily in one direction, then move lever thru neutral to “up” and crank twirls in other direction. It also twirls as fully engaged with drive train, as we tried to stop it with wood sticks and couldn’t.
    Last edited by Cannonmn; 12-30-2020 at 10:34 AM. Reason: Fix

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    If the lock nut on the side of the spindle is tight, the hand crank should not move unless it moves the spindle feed up or down depending upon which direction the crank is turned.......The 3/4" hex nut on the right releases the feed to the quill... I loosened this nut and the crank just turns freely....If I tighten the nut, the quill moves up or down depending upon which way I turn the crank... Cheers; Ramsay 1
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20201231_100123.jpg  

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    “the lock nut on the side of the spindle “

    Thx but exactly which nut is that? I’m sure u don’t mean the big quill lock nut that needs a spanner. I do know the 3/4” nut you mention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cannonmn View Post
    “the lock nut on the side of the spindle “

    Thx but exactly which nut is that? I’m sure u don’t mean the big quill lock nut that needs a spanner. I do know the 3/4” nut you mention.
    The 3/4" hex nut to the upper right of the crank... Look for red arrow.....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20201231_100123.jpg  

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    Got it, thx, will keep working with that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cannonmn View Post
    Got it, thx, will keep working with that one.
    Tightening or loosening the nut changes something a little so quill feed crank either turns or not when down or up power feed is engaged, but the quill is still at its very top position and never moves. I’ve cautiously begun exploring inside. As video shows, there’s nothing unusual about the rotation of the components shown when feed lever is up or down. So it looks like the problem is something broken or worn out that’s deeper inside.

    https://youtu.be/q_jGy2ldE94

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    Sorry I'm only just now seeing this. I went through the same thing with my 2D that I think you're going through here. I was going to make a step-by-step post about it after the problem was solved but never could find a happy way to post inline images.

    In my case the ultimate problem wound up being the "clutch". I couldn't find it initially and, not having the exact right parts book for my machine at the time, almost put it back together thinking mine was of a different design. Finally I noticed that the brass worm gear has an internal taper that you cannot see but you can measure. This is the "clutch". There was evidence that a maintenance man had been inside my gear box at some point in time. He must have flipped the gear around and put it on the wrong direction. I flipped it 180, reassembled, and it has been working beautifully every since.

    Don't be afraid to dig into your gear box. Just be methodical, take notes, and everything will be fine. In the end I was glad that I had to do it. It gave me the opportunity to clean out the box and give everything a good packing of grease. If left unserviced it might have eventually been bad for the internals.

    I've attached a few photos here that I think will help. If you need further details just email me and I can send things direct. Much easier than trying to attach here.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20190526_095316.jpg   20190526_102541.jpg   20190526_105446.jpg  

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    Thanks much, there’s a good possibility this had same thing happen because everything I’ve seen so far in the end of the gearbox is packed completely full of fresh-looking grease. So I’ll keep digging and taking pix so I can re-assemble.

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    There are a couple of caps that were flaked when the box was assembled and it's pretty easy to tell if those have been tampered with since it left the factory.

    You may already be aware of these, but if not:

    Kearney & Trecker Co. - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org

    They can be helpful during this. Just do an edit / find for "2D" to find anything relevant on that page. Many thanks to Ramsay and others for their contributions there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by W_Higgins View Post
    There are a couple of caps that were flaked when the box was assembled and it's pretty easy to tell if those have been tampered with since it left the factory.

    You may already be aware of these, but if not:

    Kearney & Trecker Co. - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org

    They can be helpful during this. Just do an edit / find for "2D" to find anything relevant on that page. Many thanks to Ramsay and others for their contributions there.
    Thx, we do have the 2D parts book so it was easy to locate the parts after seeing your photos. I ran the mill and engaged quill feed in both directions while watching the worm wheel, and it seems to turn correctly and be fully meshed with the steel worm shaft just below it. Also your photo shows the grease groove in that wheel pointed toward the inside of the gearbox, or it would point that way when its shaft was reinstalled, and assuming mine has same groove (hidden at this stage) everything there is correct. So guess I’ll need to keep disassembling. I took video of the worm wheel rotating but at slow speed, the video sux so I won’t post it.

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    If I recall correctly, the worm wheel turns all the time. When you tighten the 125 Nut on the end of the 132 Quill Feed Pinion on which the 128 Quill Drive Worm Wheel turns, it squeezes the the 127 and 129 Clutch Cones into the gear thereby causing the shaft to turn. The 129 Clutch Cone is keyed to the shaft with 130. When fully assembled, the 125 Nut on the outside of the box will turn, as well (do not run the box with the 141 Feed Box Cover removed).

    If when the 125 Nut is tight the 128 Quill Drive Worm Wheel is turning but the 132 Quill Feed Pinion is not, I think you either have a sheared 130 key or (like mine) the pinion is installed backwards and when you tighten it the gear is slipping on the cones. Either that or you have something so tight within the quill works that the clutch is doing what it is supposed to do and is slipping.

    In the case of my machine it came to me with everything coated with a heavy varnish. Originally I thought this was the cause of my problem, but once I finally got the clutch sorted out, I was able to lower the quill by hand, clean it, and everything now works as it should. Despite the heavy drag from the varnish, I was still able to feed it down with the clutch assembled correctly.

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    That part of the mechanism is pretty simple and straight forward.. If, however, you take the feed selector cover off, you will find that what lies underneath is a pandora's box... I had to disassemble mine as the "ducking key" was broken... This key cost $500 at the time from Giddings and Lewis.... I was lucky enough to acquire a print of the key and made one, case hardened it, and the rest is history....I was told by a retired K&T mechanic to NEVER disassemble that feed box, but I told him I did and it is all buttoned up and running again.. Cheers from Louisiana... Ramsay 1

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    Thx for the info. I’m not anxious to disassemble any more of the feed box so I’ll try something a lot simpler next. It could be that somehow the quill is stuck inside its housing and making the clutch slip as I think was mentioned briefly above. I can take steps to force some penetrant in there, use a little bit of heat, maybe press down on the spindle’s top knob a little, etc. There’s been no vertical movement of the quill whatsoever since we’ve been fooling with this. Guess I could put an indicator on to see if it moves even slightly.


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