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K&T 2HL Universal Feed Problem

C Clement

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Location
Cedar Hills, UT
Gentlemen, I come seeking wisdom and guidance once again. With the kind help of members here I have managed to get a Hendey 16x30 lathe and a Van Norman No.12 mill up and running. Unfortunately, it appears that I, like many of you, am susceptible to the Old Iron Disease. A year or so ago a K&T 2HL Universal appeared on our local classifieds, the price was a little high but one little look won't hurt, right? After a long look, as well as a whole bunch of amazing stuff in a family-owned 4th generation foundry, I reluctantly left empty handed. After stewing for a couple of weeks and revisiting the classified ad daily, I called back with an offer that I admitted up front was probably low but all that I could justify sneaking from the family budget (dance, soccer, piano, etc. eat up a lot of a meager income). The owner said that as I was the only person who had come to look at it in the time it was online I could have it for the offered amount. After tying up a trailer and a tarp and a spot in the hay barn for about a year, I was finally able to clear a spot (barely) and wire up a rotary phase converter and get it moved in to the shop.

The previous owner had mentioned that they had not been able to get the power feeds to work but had not spent much time on it as the mill had proved too small for the job they had acquired it for (finish milling valve bodies that they cast). When I saw it operate under power at the foundry I had noticed that the feed shaft tried to turn when it was supposed to but seemed to be slipping, a simple clutch adjustment like my Hendey lathe I told myself in the fevered state of looking at old iron. During the ensuing months I have read and searched all that I could about the mill and it appears the feed clutch is not adjustable. Now that I have it under power I am thinking the problem is not clutch related but in the gearing (or keys that lock the gears) in the shaft in the column.

In the attached photos labeled Diagram 1 and Diagram 2 I have circled several gears and keys that I suspect may be the problem. I also attached a photo showing the bottom of the rapid traverse and feed drive take off shafts to show that they are different from the diagram.

For all of the K&T experts out there, I am wondering if I am on the right track or if I need to be looking somewhere completely different? By the way, the rapid traverse works in all directions without any problems.

I made a short video of the shafts running with the spindle off and then on, showing the rapid and then feed take off drive shafts rotating, a link to the video is below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLZzuibIoiM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Thanks for all the great info.

Craig
 

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You have a terrible affliction my good man. The good news is Old Iron Disease is seldom fatal......

I do believe your next move is to take your little window out of your rapid traverse drive growth on the side of the knee there and check to see that both of the shafts in there are turning.

I think the gears that you pointed out in diagram 1 should be fine. If you can verify that the shafts in your feed and rapid traverse drive bracket are spinning then you can rule out the parts in diagram 2 as being the problem.

From there you will have to trace the lack of movement into the knee perhaps.

Just recently pulled apart a 2H and got to expose all of these assemblies and look at them. Such a nicely built machine.

I used an engine hoist to lift off all the big parts and it was pretty easy to manage.

best of luck with the mill and your iron sickness, I think you are on the right track.
 
Vonblowseph,

I took your advice and you were right on the money. The feed shaft is happily spinning beneath the rapid clutch(which, by the way, sure flings a lot of oil with cover off) when the spindle is engaged. So it looks like I'm into the knee. Anyone have any advice for me before I start down that road? Having looked at the parts diagram for the knee, I'm pretty sure the 6 speed manual transmission in my F350 has way less parts and is a far simpler mechanism.

From the blue RTV I've been running into as I take off covers I'm not the first to look into this machine. I do hope I can get things running though as everything else on the machine is in great shape.

Thanks,

Craig
 
Craig,

It's not as bad in there as you think. Looking at the diagrams can make you go cross eyed sometimes.

Looking at real parts and much better having them in your hands makes for a much better understanding of the mechanism.

Getting into the knee will be a fair bit of work. Not impossible, just keep removing the layers.

You will probably enjoy it, what with your Old Iron Disease and all......
 
In going through the diagrams some more it looks like Figure 12 (feed distribution box) is the place to start as that is where the feed clutch lies. For any of you who have been in to one of these, is there anything I should be watching for as I go in there? I know with a lot of mechanisms like these there can be tricks to getting things apart and back together that may not be obvious initially. Wish me luck as I start in.

Craig
 

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There is a right angle worm gear for the feed speed selector that has to come off before you can get the front of the knee off. It has 3 bolts/screws that hold it to the left side of the knee.
 
RandyZ, thanks for the reply, I was eyeing that cover the other day and wondering if pulling that off would allow me to look in and see if the feed clutch is indeed the problem. From the diagrams it is hard to tell the sequence to get the knee apart. One question I have is if the part bolted to the front of the knee (called the distribution box in the diagrams) comes out as a unit or if everything in it needs to be disassembled first. Thanks,
Craig
 
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The whole thing comes out as a unit. You might as well take out the rapid drive spline shaft, on the right most part of the knee. makes things easier and it has to go back in separately anyways. The worm drive has a drive tang that prevents the front from coming out. place a block of wood between the saddle and the column and you can use the Y travel lead screw to push it out with. here is some pictures that I took of my Model AC, which is basically a modified 2HL. I can't be sure that everything in mine is correct as it had been worked on in the past.

Kearney Trecker AC24 Photos by zeleny2 | Photobucket
 
Craig,
I am watching this thread with interest, if I ever have to get into my 2H then this will be a great reference if you document your progress.
The tip about the worm gear is a good start.

Good luck,
Michael
 
I used to see this problems a lot in K&T's My eyesight isn't as good as it once was to see the parts manual you have on here (having eye surgery in Dec for cateracs). I probably have a manual in the shop. There is a spring loaded feed clutch that has hardened dowel pins that roll up a sloped clutch. When you engage the feed the shaft turns the shaft and as it turns the dowel pins roll up this slope and tighten up on the inside of a feed gear. The slopes ( I think there are at least 6 of them) is hardened and the slope wears a groove in it over time and we used to buy a new clutch assembly. But I am not sure you can buy a new one anymore.

The one clutch is a bunch of steel balls with springs that goes into detents, that's is a safety clutch so it only turns if you crash the machine If it turns it sounds like a machine gun going off. They have it so you don't break a gear or twist a shaft.

We never were to successful trying to fix the feed slopes ourselves. You maybe able to put the slope inner gear on an index head and kiss grind each slope to eliminate the groove which I believe is under .005" deep. Then install a larger pin. I heard one rebuilder tell me once he would stone each slope and count the number of cuts and remove the same amount off each one to keep it the same. Sounded like BS to me but who knows. worth a try if your careful. We would sometimes hear the customer say it worked sometimes if he would wiggle the rapid feed lever and it would engage the feed.
I guess that would turn that clutch in the opposite direction and was enough to get the pin to roll up when reversed when feed was engaged again.

It is inside the knee. A tip is to put the feed rate crank in the lowest feed before taking off the front cover. We used to put a 4x 4 behind the saddle and column, loosen the allen bolts, screw in longer ones so the knee cover will hang on the bolts, then crank in the manual feed hand wheel and as it hits the 4 x 4 the leverage will push the frt cover unit out of the knee. as it moves out to clear the gears. There are set screws you tighten to jack it off the alignment dowel bins. It's been 30 years I think since I did this. I also think you may have to pull the left feed crank bracket first as it has a shaft that slides into the side of the front transmission cover as shown in your print.

If you get it out of time you need to pull the feed change handle cover off and under the number cover you will see 2 small gears with timing marks. Pull the one and slide a big screw driver in the keyed hole and turn the gear until the feed is in the slowest setting. it is next to the fastest so be careful as it will grawl. when it is in the low feed re-install the gear so the timing marks align and the feed handle is turned to the low setting. It is easier to do then type it..ha ha. On some of the bigger machines you has to take off a small cover on the left side and pull out a keyed gear before cranking out the knee. Rich

PS: Now with all the OSHA BS...be sure to lock out the power before doing any repair. :-) happy?
 
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Gentlemen, thanks so much for the input, without it this would be a very daunting project. Thanks for the photos RandyZ, they are much clearer than the diagrams to see whole assemblies.

Richard thank you for sharing your expertise, that is what makes the PM forums so amazing

I'll keep you all updated as things progress.

Craig
 
20141001_142411.jpgWell I started in today and, as RandyZ said, it makes more sense seeing things in place. Using the suggestions of using the y- axis feed and a block the front of the knee jacked right off. One of those things that makes all sorts of sense after you do it but trying to envision it from a description is tough. I am now noodling how to remove the rapid traverse shaft as mentioned by RandyZ above.
 
There is three screws on the front cover. The shaft and the bearing slide right out.
With digital cameras, there is no reason not to take lots of photos. You sometimes need them on how things were in the first place.
Also God bless Kearney trecker engineers for all their silly ways of putting things together. I swear most of it was to discourage people from servicing things themselves and having to call the factory for support. Of course they are no longer here and we have to puzzle out what they had intended. As an example, the sliding dog for the Y travel can only go in one way. There is zero marking on it to indicate which way face forward. If you put it in backwards, as I did, you will have travel in only one direction. K&T obviously machined this part to fit only one way.
I had one bearing on the y travel clutch, that was rusted up and needed replacing. K&T made the opening 1/8" too small to slide it out easily. Instead you have to take the whole gear train out and get it from the far side.
 
Also now that you have it apart, this would be an excellent time to add a few rare earth magnets in the bottom of the knee, to catch any metal fragments in the oil.
 
Well I was able to get fairly far in to the knee today and so far nothing looks too worn or broken. In attached photo I have circled what I believe is the feed input gear and the feed clutch (the feed box is upside down in the photo). I am thinking that when the gear is turned and a feed is engaged the clutch should rotate but it is not. Hopefully I am on the right track. The next challenge will be getting the feed box disassembled so I can get the clutch apart and check it out.
 

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Craig, good job so far....
If you want to bench test before further dis-assembly I was thinking you could make a little drive hub and run it from a cordless drill. Just something that slips over the drive gear with a couple of pins to engage the teeth and a shaft for the drill chuck. Turning by hand gets a bit tedious.
Also great to have some advice from Richard re what to look for, this site is amazing that way.

Good luck.

Michael
 
Micheal, thanks for the drill idea. I had a small gear lying around that fit up nicely. Driving the feed input the feed clutch still did not turn, while watching it turn I thought I wonder if changing the feed speed would have any effect on things, I turned the feed selector cam and the feed clutch began turning.

My question to the experts is whether or not having the feed selector gears out of time would prevent the feed from working properly as it seems to be working now and I can move the selector cam to a setting that stops the feed clutch from turning. I already had gotten the feed out of time by taking the box on the side of the knee off before reading Richard's advice to have it in the lowest setting before pulling the box off.

The knee has been apart before and evidenced by all the blue RTV and it looks like the shaft for the feed selection is kind of beat up as shown in the attached photo.

I also attached a link to a video of the test. I'm sorry for the poor video quality, not one of my areas of expertise. In the video I am driving the input with a drill and the Y and z axis feeds can be seen turning. I then move the feed selection cam to the spot where the feed stops working.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIWKniHDiPI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 

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The drive tang is slightly offset, so you will notice if one is 180 out. Line them up so that their nicely inline.

Well after looking at your video, it does seem that the geartrain is working. By the way, Don't be selecting speeds by turning only one side. The two cam wheels have to stay in time so that only the proper combination of gears are engaged at any one time.
 








 
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