Which Kearney Trecker mills are desirable toolroom candidates?

Yep, the "Horizontal Mill" thread got me thinking.

I recall reading that many K&T horizontal/universal versions exist, and some were intended for production, not one-off machining tasks.

And perhaps an evolutionary dead-end or two.

John Oder, was that you commenting, perhaps you could provide a link to that discussion?

So, let's narrow it down to a K&T universal mill, weighing less than 10,000 lbs. Which ones are candidates for a toolroom/machine shop? Is the "under 10,000 lbs." a deal-breaker?

And why is any model especially qualified, or disqualified?

Thanks,
Steve

Any of the universal were never intended for production. Easy to tell K&T production mills - they have names like MilwaukeeMil and do not look like the knee and column jobs.

Weight is age related. And in K&T we have a interesting twist here. A 1925 2B weighs more than a 1945 2H

To get over 10000 you would have to get a 4CH vertical like Dave rescued from Memphis

Important to realize there are BIG K&T series and there are SMALLER K&T series. The smaller ones even have smaller versions of themselves.

All K, and anything with a K (KM, CK) are bigger, tougher, more powerful than anything with an H (HL, CH, CHL, etc) assuming same size number. There are 2K and 2CK that push on 7000 lbs. There are 1H that barely get over 3000.

The latest ones have no clutch - you just push the button and up to 50HP is like on, man.

TFs were twin knee screw brutes evolved from the big series. These got up to 17K.

J.O.

Thank You John

John, Thank You for your response, I appreciate your expert knowledge.

[My name is Steve, and I am a Bottom Feeder ]

If you don't mind, let's discuss a specific unit on ebay. If you prefer to do any or all of this discussion by PM, please do.

The unit is
56" Tbl 7.5HP Spdl Kearney&Trecker 2K UNIVERSAL MILL - eBay (item 400182856073 end time Jan-21-11 07:15:09 PST)

For $1950, Buy It Now. I recall seeing that photo several months ago.

I assume the following details have kept it from selling.

East Coast, meaning it appeals to only the East coast, and it has East coast transport costs, though many truckers would like to have any paid load on a Friday afternoon.

7.5 HP, which can be fitted to a single phase input VFD, but that's an expert level application (contact the VFD maker).

No voltage given, and the dealer may not care to find out at this price.

6500 lbs, so it takes a beefy vehicle, and a beefy forklift.

However....

"Universal" hints it was never in production.
1945 production hints it avoided war use, also.



So a 2K is a strong, heavy beast that may have sat in the corner while machines with lighter touches were used more frequently.

How hard to fit a DRO?
What is parts availability?
Did this model have an Achilles Heel?



Why so cheap? Is that the standard complement of HP, speeds, feeds, table, axis travels, etc?

Just Plum Worn Out is always a possibility, I admit.

Serial Number 38-4854

Why so cheap?

Click to expand...

Last one I know of selling locally went for $600, and it was a good one, I.E.. not busted up in column or knee.

How hard to fit a DRO?

Click to expand...

Never heard of one with a DRO

What is parts availability?

Click to expand...

Zero unless you like to buy things like a single gear for more than the purchase price of the whole machine. I.E. , the people in the parts business sell to businesses, not individuals.

Did this model have an Achilles Heel?

Click to expand...

Sure - like any money making machine 65 years old, it has been exposed to varying persons of varying attitudes, mechanical snap and general consideration for mechanical items. Read up on Cory's Cincinnati in this section which was found to have been wrecked by one of these folks.

As to the assumption that being a universal excused it from harsh treatment is absurd. This may have been true at the shop of its first owner, and progressively less true as the years rolled by and new owners came and went. Any lay person would have had to been SHOWN that it was somehow different from a plain.

Any party buying one of these should expect it to be wrecked inside if he has not got around to running in all speeds and feeds prior to showing the seller any money.

As to discussion, its the heavy duty #2 made that year. If 7.5 HP three phase seems unmanageable, the prospect is looking at the wrong sort of equipment. The $600 one here had 10 HP.


It has 24 speeds from 15 to 1500 and 32 feeds from 1/4 to 60 IPM. The catalog weight as of the late thirties full line catalog was 6400 and this included the 10" Model K dividing head and its drives.

J.O.

Choose carefully or expect the worst

I am in agreement with John on all counts and I imagine many others here would be as well. There are still some cherries out there to be plucked in that market but patience and luck are key elements in any search for a 50 to 70 year old industrial machine.

I have brought home and kept/used/resold at least two dozen of these machines and probably passed on 3 times that many and the only ones I had a problem with were the ones that I didn't thoroughly inspect. If you are interested in a particular machine and can't get there to inspect it I bet someone here could help out, I know I have done it for others before and have seen mention of members helping each other that way.

Even the smaller models like a #2 size is a pretty robust machine and gear driven 5hp machines can swing a big cutter or boring head without breaking a sweat most of the time.

That machine you mentioned at $1,950.00 is definitely at the high end of the price range generally speaking but if upon inspection it showed to be in very good condition and you could handle moving it around then maybe it fits your pocket book.

My 2CK universal was new in 1964 is in pretty good shape and I got it from Arkansas to Detroit for $1,250.00 including shipping which worked for me and my budget. A friend of mine bought a 1952 2CHL universal from HGR for $600.00 last year and it was the closest thing to new that I had ever seen but unless you were there to check it you couldn't tell from the pictures.

Guess I am saying don't dive into the deep end without a life preserver and you are on the right track by asking for help here.

SW,

I agree completely with all that has been said so far. I might add a couple of points, though.

I may be over simplifying things, and am perfectly willing to stand corrected, but to me a 2K is basically a 3H with a smaller table. If it was me, I'd pick the 3H every time, unless I was positive I was going to do smaller-sized work exclusively and/or space is at an extreme premium. In my experience, no matter what size table you have, it will always be a smidgen too small every so often.

Running the machine in every gear and feed is a good idea, although it will take a while. I'd take that a step further, though. I would also occasionally back up one feed or gear as I'm going through them. Advancing in one direction keeps any accumulated slop taken up, and backing up one gear will show it up. Also, if I recall rightly, the big shift from top speed to bottom or fastest feed to slowest (or vice-versa) is the tough one and the most likely to cause problems.

Test the rapids, too. There is a spring and ball overload clutch in there, and it tends to get wonky over time, and it's a big job to get at. (Once you're in there, it's usually not a big parts replacement thing, just some bearing balls and little springs. It's the trip into and out of there that will get ya.)

To test the rapids, rapid the table up. It should go smoothly with no stopping or odd noises (i.e. should sound like the x axis rapid). If it's OK, snug the vertical axis lock up a wee bit to simulate a load (don't over do it!) and try the rapid again. If it still works fine, you've got it made.

Oh, I forgot. First thing first, check to see that the thing has oil in it and that there is a steady drip in the sight glass when running. No oil and no oil drip when running = a steaming plate full of Not Good - were the vandals running the thing without lubrication? (Check the knee, too.) A reasonable exception here might be if the machine is on a pallet or something and not set up for use. Some riggers/truckers drain the oil out of machines as a CYA measure before loading (dripping machine = ticket = big $$$).

These old K&T's and Cincinnati's are wonderful machines. They're kind of like girls - once you've tried one, nothing else comes close.

One last wee thing, the older versions of the K&T's (pre 1940 approx.) did not have the "one shot" lubricator on the saddle. Not earth shattering, but if you find two machines and can't decide between them, this minor point might help make the decision.

Parting shot, some of the older #2's had a 40 taper and smaller dials. Again, not a show stopper but something to be aware of. Also, if you buy a horiz/universal, be sure you get both of the arbor supports with the machine. If those are missing, you may end up paying as much for the support as you paid for the machine. If you buy a later machine without a clutch as John O. mentioned above, be VERY careful when setting it up. There is some fragile switch gear on the motor shaft (the purpose of which eludes me right now) that loves to commit suicide if the motor is run backward.

In light of all of the above, I'd be looking as close to locally as possible so that you can inspect the machine yourself. One potential source for cheap machines is a dealer who specializes in late model machines and CNC's. They may take some "old relic" in on trade and have no idea what to do with it and no desire to find out. I got a really fabulous deal on an old but nice and well-tooled 17" Leblond that way. The seller was great and really helpful - he was just glad to get the thing out of his store without having to scrap it.

Happy shopping,

Steve

A bit more info . . .

The "clutch-less" K&T mills, at least some of them, have a 200# flywheel on the "back" end of the spindle. This really takes a lot of load off the gears if you are using a cutter with a small number of teeth. When there is only one tooth on the work at a time, when the cutting tooth leaves the work, the spindle (due to stored elastic energy in the drive train) gets ahead of the gears upstream -- when the next cutting tooth arrives at the work surface, all the backlash in the gears gets reversed, causing a lot of racket and eventual damage to the working surfaces of the gear teeth. You can see a large round cover plate over the flywheel at the rear of the column casting.

In the shop where I taught we had an early (1940's ?) one of these 2K's. I also saw a later one of these at Walter A's shop. The early one had the "self-destruct" problem if the three-phase wiring was connected wrong. See a bit more discussion in posts #16 and later of my 2CH thread. I believe that the later mills like Walter's were more forgiving.

Archie

Correct rotation

There are Phase rotation meters available which have two inputs one from live power and the other from the motor (without power connected).

First you check the phase sequence of the power. It dosen't matter how you connect the meter simply label the power leads A B C with respect to the meter's A B C. Note the Hand of the rotation (clockwise or opposite). Then connect the other side of the meter to the motor and rotate it slowly in the correct direction for the machine. Note the phase rotation of the motor and connect it as needed.

They are fairly cheap ~$100 +/-...... You don't need fast rotation, a few rpm usually does it...

9¢

Where would a 307 S12 fit in the line up?

Hello: If you know which direction the motor has to turn and you can take the belts off, just wire it and bump the switch to see which way the motor rotates.. If not correct switch any two leads just be sure that the starter coil isn't getting too much voltage as in the power in my shop, one leg is 208 to ground.. You want to be sure that if you have a 120 volt starter coil, it is getting 120 and not 208.. Mike

The machine you linked has the side controls. Not all machines had them and they are highly desirable. The side controls allow you to operate your horizontal more like a boring mill. You use end mill holders and drill chucks and a vise clamped upright to an angle plate rather than assembling side milling cutters onto an arbor.

It is not be as handy as a turret mill for drilling small holes or using 1/4" end mills. When you want to remove serious metal using 3/4" endmills and up, 3 to 12" face mills, or larger than 1" drills, now you have a real machine.

Thank You All for the inputs, I am keeping an eye on this thread

Thank You All for the inputs, I am keeping an eye on this thread, and appreciate all the entries.

There seems to be a sweetspot in the model lineup, that would/could be a later flywheel-equipped universal; 2CH or 3CH, though the 3CH is a big brute that takes some serious rigging to wrestle, but not as serious as a 4CH.

50 taper is more desirable than 40 taper.

Side controls are desireable, and it seems best to get one with all the needed accessories, instead of tripping over a machine, waiting for the needed item to become available.

Yes, the alphabet soup of K&T escapes me, a bit.


I'm thinking that once I truly comprehend the the K&T universe, and I have cash in hand (not credit card), the next step would be to visit every mold shop/machine shop/fab shop (& machinery dealer?) in town and politely ask if I can have my Wanted flyers pinned to the bulletin board.

Side controls only come on the biggies 2K and up. To get them on an H machine it has to be at least a 3 and then also be lucky enough to have the option.

The only machines with 40 in main spindle are:

Some 2H (50 was a popular option). All 1H and 2HL. All 1CH and 2CHL

My info only gets as modern as '57, so I don't know zip about the newer ones.

J.O.

Hello: Rear controls std equipment on 210ch, 310ch, 315ch, and 415ch universal styles.. Available at extra cost on 210ch, 310ch, 315ch, and 415ch plain and vertical styles..
Spindle is 40 on 103ch and 203ch universal horizontal machines.. Spindle is 50 on 205ch, 210ch,310ch,315ch, and 415ch universal horizontal machines..Mike

Wow, thanks for the information.

I am lost when it comes to the alphabet models; how do I parse the letters?

alphabet soup

Maybe I can make a little headway with the K&T suffixes.

H denotes the standard-duty mills.

K mills are heavier, and, as I said before, roughly equate to the next size larger H mill but with a shorter table. For example, let's say that:
a 2H has 16 spindle speeds, 5HP, and a 12 x 60 table, and that
a 3H has 24 spindle speeds, 7 1/2 HP, and a 14 x 72 table.
A 2K would have 24 spindle speeds, 7 1/2 HP, and a 14 x 60 table.
(I'm making some of these numbers up for illustrative purposes, because I don't have any mills to measure. They're close, though.)

L mills are the lighter series. I don't think there are any #3 or larger L's, only 1's and 2's.

C stands for carbide, or so I was told. I believe the C mills have higher spindle speeds than the non-C mills, and may be slightly heavier with a bit more horsepower. I admit I'm a little hazy on the C thing. They look just like the ordinary H's, so they can't be too different.

As to the 205's, 307's, etc, they're anybody's guess - too new for me!

I am basing many of these statements on observation and memory. If I am full of beans about any of them, please let me know!

Steve

CH Series

Hello: This is for CH Series... Mike

A minor point . . .

On the early machines that had a flywheel on the spindle, the fragile reverse-sensor is mounted on the opposite end of the motor shaft from the pulleys. This is the machine that you need to be careful with as even a 1/4-turn of the motor in the wrong direction will scramble the sensor. Later they moved the sensor up onto the shaft above and it seems to be an encoder that would not be damaged by being reversed.

With the early flywheel machines a phase rotation meter would be a good idea.

Archie

sa100 said:

They look just like the ordinary H's, so they can't be too different.

Click to expand...

I thought the same. I had run a 2H a long time ago and recently bought a 2CH. It turns out that there are a lot more differences than you might think. They up-sized a number of power train parts and the CH models have the great feed dials that can be set to the nearest .001" with no danger of slipping.

Archie Cheda said:

On the early machines that had a flywheel on the spindle, the fragile reverse-sensor is mounted on the opposite end of the motor shaft from the pulleys. This is the machine that you need to be careful with as even a 1/4-turn of the motor in the wrong direction will scramble the sensor. Later they moved the sensor up onto the shaft above and it seems to be an encoder that would not be damaged by being reversed.

With the early flywheel machines a phase rotation meter would be a good idea.

Archie


I thought the same. I had run a 2H a long time ago and recently bought a 2CH. It turns out that there are a lot more differences than you might think. They up-sized a number of power train parts and the CH models have the great feed dials that can be set to the nearest .001" with no danger of slipping.

Click to expand...

I have a 2H plain and would love to have a 2ch for the backlash eliminator for climb milling...Mike

No BE on my 1956 2CH.

J.O.