Kearney and Trecker Milwaukee 2HL Plain Horizontal Mill - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    You have to find one before ever concerning yourself about cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Villars View Post
    Thanks for the correct manual, Ramsay! I downloaded it and was just reading it.

    I noticed a part in the illustrations that isn't on the mill I'm purchasing - the "over arm brace" (part #26 in the manual, I think), which apparently adds rigidity by locking the arbor arms to the knee for some applications. Seems like something I can do without for now (?), but just thought I'd check with the experts… Would this be something I could track down, and about how much might it run?

    Thanks!

    Ken

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    Hello: On the arm brace, trust me you will not need that unless you are running a big slabbing cutter...I have an arm brace for my 2hl and my 2h and have only used the one for the 2hl once to try out a slabbing cutter on steel...Most of the time when you find a K&T horizontal, there is no arm brace with it...Unless you have a style "B" arbor support, you can't use an arm brace anyway... Ramsay 1
    Last edited by ramsay1; 09-10-2014 at 05:26 PM.

  3. #43
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    Ha ha.

    Thanks guys!

    Ken

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    Sorry to be out of touch so long. I successfully picked up the mill and transported it home last Saturday (with the help of my friend Fred and his tractor, and Gordon and his trailer, without either it wouldn't have happened). My wife helped me push it in the garage. Well, she moved the rollers (pieces of pipe). No such thing as "slightly uphill" with a machine this heavy… Probably would have helped if I hadn't been standing in oil we spilled while offloading (no big deal, John told me to replace it anyway).

    I've been super busy before and after (trying to arrange transport of a 20' storage container, and lining up purchaser of a Little Giant power hammer, etc.). I'll try and post photos when things settle down here in a week or so…

    Thanks again to all!

    Ken

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    Eagerly awaiting those photos. Some one mentioned in one of the post it may not have the right engagement levers. If so I have some off a 2k. I am so glad to hear that you went and picked it up. I am anxious to fire up my 3ch now that I have some rear controls for it. Still assembling and repairing and cleaning. .......... and so on.

    Tim

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    Tim, I've been extremely busy. Sorry to make you wait so long for photos. I about had the garage cleaned up enough to be able to roll the mill into its intended position, but then I just picked up a couple Little Giant power hammers, and the rather large and heavy parts for the 100# hammer are right in the way! I intended to move them the next day, but then I was so tired from transporting and positioning the hammers I threw my back out doing something else (stupid); so I'm waiting a few more days.

    Let me know about the levers. I'll probably have to wait awhile for my funds to recover…

    Ken

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    Hi Ken Hi Ken glad you added a post and I caught it. Go ahead and take some photos (when convenient) we all like to see them and contact me through my email or PM me and we will see if the levers I got will work. For that mater I could take some photos of the levers and dimensions and send them to you. Sorry about the back, I know that one only too well. ,,,,,,,,,,[email protected]

    I see that you are also one of those "awake at 2 am guys"

    Tim

    Ken[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Villars View Post
    Tim, I've been extremely busy. Sorry to make you wait so long for photos. I about had the garage cleaned up enough to be able to roll the mill into its intended position, but then I just picked up a couple Little Giant power hammers, and the rather large and heavy parts for the 100# hammer are right in the way! I intended to move them the next day, but then I was so tired from transporting and positioning the hammers I threw my back out doing something else (stupid); so I'm waiting a few more days.

    Let me know about the levers. I'll probably have to wait awhile for my funds to recover…

    Hi Ken glad you added a post and I caught it. Go ahead and take some photos (when convenient) we all like to see them and contact me through my email or PM me and we will see if the levers I got will work. For that mater I could take some photos of the levers and dimensions and send them to you. Sorry about the back, I know that one only too well. ,,,,,,,,,,[email protected]

    I see that you are also one of those "awake at 2 am guys"

    Tim

    Ken

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    Thanks again, Tim. My back is much better now. I've been taking it easy, and it seemed to help some doing some flintknapping (sitting on a bucket and leaning over a bit seemed to stretch it some).

    Here's some photos of the mill in the garage (I had cleared the front right quarter of the garage to make room to get it inside) the night we brought it home.


    mill2sep14.jpg


    mill3sep14.jpg


    I'm still clearing space to move the mill where I think it will live for now. Just the other day my back felt well enough I moved all the parts from the 100# Little Giant I just got that were between the mill and its home… That actually seemed to stretch my back out a little, too. Ha ha. I think just the motor from that thing weighed nearly 150#…

    I'll email you about those levers.


    Ken

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    Sorry to be absent so long. I hope it is alright to post again in this old thread. If not, I will start over in a new one.

    I have a need to use the mill now, so it is being pushed frontwards in my projects. I tried to research anyone using a VFD with this type of mill and couldn't really find anything. After successfully putting a new motor and a VFD on the South Bend lathe I mentioned earlier in this post, I decided that if I could use a similar VFD with this mill, it would be worth doing. The main reason is that I feel like for some tapping operations I need to do, I could slow down and reverse directions easily. I do understand that the oil pump doesn't operate when the motor runs in reverse, and that the machine does have a mechanical spindle reverse (hard to access from where I would be tapping). I hope that doing short reverses (backing out tap by reversing spindle and backing off table) between longer duration forward tapping would provide sufficient lubrication. At this point, though, I can't seem to get my VFD to start the motor, so that question may be moot.

    I bought a KBAC 29 that is rated to run a 3HP motor, converting single phase 220v to 3phase 220V (which is what the 3HP motor on the mill wants). I believe I have it wired correctly. Unfortunately, I wasn't thinking about the LED default codes, and missed what the VFD blinked at me when the motor failed to start. There is a breaker on the back of the mill, between a fuse box with large (cigar sized) fuses and the motor, and I thought I heard a click before the fault lights flashed; but it appears to be un-tripped, and the fuses show continuity (the extent of my ability with a multi meter - checking continuity).

    Can anyone even tell me if it is possible to use this VFD with this mill? It is very difficult to get photos of the motor plate, but I can provide what I have. I am starting to wonder if this motor has too high of a start up requirement for this VFD... Perhaps I need a specific speed internal setting? Or I'm not doing something right on the mill to start the motor.

    The previous owner was using a rotary phase converter with this mill, and it was operating fine for him. He explained it to me, but between the time passed and my not really understanding what he was talking about, my recollection is foggy. I think he said I needed a 7 or 10 HP motor to make my own rotary phase converter; but I could well have misunderstood or misremember. Maybe he will see this post and contact me.

    Anyway, I don't have to use the VFD for reverse if it is a Bad Idea, and I can easily remove the auxiliary reverse switch I added. But I have it, and if it is reasonable, I would like to use it to power the mill. If not feasible, please advise on static or rotary phase inverter. I was leaning towards static, mainly because of space considerations.

    Thanks to all for your help previously, and for any help anyone can give me now.

    Ken Villars

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Villars View Post
    Sorry to be absent so long. I hope it is alright to post again in this old thread. If not, I will start over in a new one.

    I have a need to use the mill now, so it is being pushed frontwards in my projects. I tried to research anyone using a VFD with this type of mill and couldn't really find anything. After successfully putting a new motor and a VFD on the South Bend lathe I mentioned earlier in this post, I decided that if I could use a similar VFD with this mill, it would be worth doing. The main reason is that I feel like for some tapping operations I need to do, I could slow down and reverse directions easily. I do understand that the oil pump doesn't operate when the motor runs in reverse, and that the machine does have a mechanical spindle reverse (hard to access from where I would be tapping). I hope that doing short reverses (backing out tap by reversing spindle and backing off table) between longer duration forward tapping would provide sufficient lubrication. At this point, though, I can't seem to get my VFD to start the motor, so that question may be moot.

    I bought a KBAC 29 that is rated to run a 3HP motor, converting single phase 220v to 3phase 220V (which is what the 3HP motor on the mill wants). I believe I have it wired correctly. Unfortunately, I wasn't thinking about the LED default codes, and missed what the VFD blinked at me when the motor failed to start. There is a breaker on the back of the mill, between a fuse box with large (cigar sized) fuses and the motor, and I thought I heard a click before the fault lights flashed; but it appears to be un-tripped, and the fuses show continuity (the extent of my ability with a multi meter - checking continuity).

    Can anyone even tell me if it is possible to use this VFD with this mill? It is very difficult to get photos of the motor plate, but I can provide what I have. I am starting to wonder if this motor has too high of a start up requirement for this VFD... Perhaps I need a specific speed internal setting? Or I'm not doing something right on the mill to start the motor.

    The previous owner was using a rotary phase converter with this mill, and it was operating fine for him. He explained it to me, but between the time passed and my not really understanding what he was talking about, my recollection is foggy. I think he said I needed a 7 or 10 HP motor to make my own rotary phase converter; but I could well have misunderstood or misremember. Maybe he will see this post and contact me.

    Anyway, I don't have to use the VFD for reverse if it is a Bad Idea, and I can easily remove the auxiliary reverse switch I added. But I have it, and if it is reasonable, I would like to use it to power the mill. If not feasible, please advise on static or rotary phase inverter. I was leaning towards static, mainly because of space considerations.

    Thanks to all for your help previously, and for any help anyone can give me now.

    Ken Villars
    I recently was looking at a K&T mill and no 3phase power was available, so I took a VFD with me and wired it up and ran it. This was a 5hp machine, the only VFD I had lying around was a 2hp.

    To get it going I removed the load wires from the contact/overload relay and attached them to the VFD, effectively bypassing the existing control transformer and switching.

    It ran, though it struggled a bit because the 5hp motor coupled with the gear train and power feeds was quite a load.

    So I would say you should have no problem with a properly sized VFD. You would NOT want to use the VFD to reverse, since it is important for the machine to always turn in the correct direction (as defined by the clutch pulley inside the cover on the right hand side of the machine).

    You would probably want to wire the VFD's low voltage contacts for start/stop into the control wires that go to the clutch/brake arm switchbox. You will not want any switches in the VFD's output path to the motor.

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  12. #51
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    Thank you Brandenberger for your prompt and helpful reply! I really appreciate it; and it is helpful getting advice from someone who has actually tried what I'm talking about.

    I have a couple questions. Regarding your last sentence in your reply above: I'm not sure how to do what you describe. Do you think I could instead disconnect the power to the mill's Start and Stop switches (which are on the clutch handle at the top of the machine) at one or the other end of the wires to the switches?

    My second question is just to clarify: It would be a Bad Idea to run the mill in reverse even for a brief time to reverse a tap (I would also be powering the table away from the spindle/tap)? In other words, it is more than the problem of a brief period of running without lubrication, but also bad because of mechanics involving the clutch?

    Please forgive my confusion!

    Also, a new question: Does anyone foresee a problem with using the VFD to vary motor speed? If so, any recommendations on how to set the VFD to best operate the mill with motor at normal operating speed?

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Villars View Post
    Thank you Brandenberger for your prompt and helpful reply! I really appreciate it; and it is helpful getting advice from someone who has actually tried what I'm talking about.

    I have a couple questions. Regarding your last sentence in your reply above: I'm not sure how to do what you describe. Do you think I could instead disconnect the power to the mill's Start and Stop switches (which are on the clutch handle at the top of the machine) at one or the other end of the wires to the switches?

    My second question is just to clarify: It would be a Bad Idea to run the mill in reverse even for a brief time to reverse a tap (I would also be powering the table away from the spindle/tap)? In other words, it is more than the problem of a brief period of running without lubrication, but also bad because of mechanics involving the clutch?

    Please forgive my confusion!

    Also, a new question: Does anyone foresee a problem with using the VFD to vary motor speed? If so, any recommendations on how to set the VFD to best operate the mill with motor at normal operating speed?

    Ken
    I'm far from an expert on these mills, others can chime in, probably other people who run these on VFDs too. But my thoughts:

    - If you wanted to disable the on/off switch on the clutch handle entirely, you're certainly fine to do that. Then however you planned to start/stop the VFD would determine whether the machine's main motor is running.

    - I'm not certain what voltage your control transformer would be (12v of 24v or maybe 110v?) so I can't say if it is directly usable to control the VFD, if you did want to keep the on/off switch working.

    - w/regard to running the machine forward/reverse-- you can search PM and find many threads talking about issues when running the main motor in reverse. Suffice it to say the machine is designed to run in one direction only. I haven't tried stopping/starting the whole machine's motor and gear load on a VFD with the clutch engaged, so can't comment on that idea. I'm also not sure whether any of the overload clutch type things in the knee would operate properly "in reverse." It seems to be the way the travel stops work on these mills might make that risky-- your mill, if running with the feed motor reversed, would feed the opposite direction and thus not be stopped by the travel stops. It may in fact force itself to continue past the travel stops?

    - while you could use the VFD to change speeds of the motor, bear in mind you're also implicitly changing the feed rates too (coming off the same motor). You might want this, you might not. As you can imagine the torque from a VFD running at 30hz in one gear is likely quite different from the same motor running at 60hz but switching drive gear to half the spindle RPMs.

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    Thanks again, Brandenberger!

    I had been thinking about some of the difficulties of running the machine with the motor slowed down (that you mention). It may well be that the only time I would find it practical at all would be when tapping and backing out taps. Maybe I would be ahead to make a dedicated tapping machine with a high torque motor and a VFD (or step down pulleys)! Maybe something I could mount to my mill table...

    I'm not yet understanding what you mean regarding the transformer. My mill has a transformer mounted by the electric panel, but from what I see it looks to have not been in use. Perhaps the previous owner bypassed the transformer (and thus the switches on the clutch handle)? There are other things I don't understand about the way the electrical service is set up (or has been modified) on this machine; and I may have to post photos later to see if someone can help me figure it out. However, it might all be moot for at least another little while.

    I was thinking and researching between your answers (and praying for understanding). I saw some video of the inside of a similar machine while its motor was running, and heard in another video how the motor "splashes oil everywhere inside during operation". It now occurs to me, though I think it is possible (even for me, with some guidance) to mount a VFD on this machine and get it to run, that it may indeed be a Bad Idea. If the motor is slowed down, proper lubrication might not occur. There are two (I believe) sight windows that are specifically to see that oil is pumping sufficiently while the motor is on. I now am getting a strong suspicion that if I do get my particular machine powered up with my VFD, that those sight windows will be telling me, "Hey, don't turn the motor speed down!"

    I hope someone will be able to comment as to that, as I am only just guessing (obviously). At this point I am leaning towards trying to find out which static phase converter is recommended for this machine and if it will work; or, alternatively, look into making my own rotary phase converter.

    I also better understand the front levers of the machine (mentioned as missing earlier in this thread). It looks like right now the table is is not manually moveable in or out or up or down, but only using power feed, with DRO. Someone kindly offered a possible solution years ago. I will have to look back and see about that.

    I'm very grateful for all the help, and for the existence of the forum in general.

    Ken

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    I don't think it is a great idea to run the motor at fractional speed. As you know, it means they'll be proportionally less lubrication flow, same for coolant, and the motor fan speed. So really nothing particularly good can come of slowing it down by a large margin.

    If you want help with the control transformer post some pictures. You ought to be able to trace the wires from the pendant/clutch switches easily and identify then when they come out in the panel.

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    I will probably need help once I figure out how to power it!

    Right now I can only identify four wires in the electrical box: The three line wires and the ground. I'll take a closer look at some point.

    Thanks again!

    Ken

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    One thing to keep in mind trying to use a VFD powering a mill like a K & T. You pretty much have to throw out all of the current electrical equipment and start new. Trying to integrate the VFD into using the power on/power off lever on the K & T is going to involve putting some kind of relay in the control circuit that feeds off of the current of the VFD controller, which is about 3 volts. For my mill, I have a simple for-off-rev single pole switch and pot for speed control mounted in a small box suspended on a length of loom so I can move it around on the mill as I see fit. I do power tap with this setup, but I'm on a much smaller Index 645 mill. I have a hard time seeing you being able to power tap on a K & T vertical mill I assume. I don't think your vertical slide moves that easily. Maybe I'm missing something here.
    As for the slower spindle speeds, this has no affect on the lubricating pump for the spindle. As long as the pump is putting out oil, even at a slower rate, the bearings are still getting lubricated, you are good.
    Your difficulty of getting the motor to run when you turn on the VFD, the ramp up time needs to be lengthen enough to allow the motor to come up to speed without alarming out and shutting down the VFD. Last, get those fuses out of the circuit and install a DIN style breaker made to run VFD's on. The fuses, if one was to blow, the other not blow will kill your VFD in a heart beat. I learn this the hard way. I think you would be better off sticking with the RPC for this type of machine in the long run.

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    Thank you 4GSR.

    I have decided to go forward with either a rotary or static phase inverter.

    I will post photos later of the electric set up and see if someone can help me figure it out.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Villars View Post
    Thank you 4GSR.

    I have decided to go forward with either a rotary or static phase inverter.

    I will post photos later of the electric set up and see if someone can help me figure it out.

    Ken
    Go directly to a stout ROTARY phase converter. Because it does. Phase Convert.

    A "static" does not. Actually convert the power.

    All it does is "convert" one-third plus a skosh of the 3-Phase MOTOR to a single-phase motor by providing the directional kick so it starts rotating rather than locking up.. then runs one set of the three phase-windings off single-phase.

    The other two pick up "some" CEMF power induced through the structure - similar to an RPC idler, but not as good because that is the LOAD(ed) motor, too, not a free-running, separate, "idler" as the RPC has.

    Decent RPC, you won't need ANY changes to the electricals on the mill so long as they are healthy, (some may need renewed..), are fed the right Voltage, (2XX vs 4XX thing..) given the correct direction of rotation (swap any two wires..) and that any supplemental single-phase loads, such as a control transformer for operating relays and contactor coils is kept on the two main legs, not the "generated" leg

    ... which swings its Voltage and current about a bit as load varies.

    The load motor(s) won't much mind that variability on only one phase out of three. RPC are good for about 91% of full nameplate.

    But you don't want controls going edge-case - maybe chattering - if a heavy load is pulling the generated leg off its perch.

    That simple. Same as if you had "real 3-Phase", mostly. Something is over-age, gone flakey, wore-out, wire is decrepit? You'd need to replace it anyway.

    RPC lets you leave it all "as built". Same drawings the factory used. JF utilize the mill rather than playing with a VFD instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Villars View Post
    Thank you 4GSR.

    I have decided to go forward with either a rotary or static phase inverter.

    I will post photos later of the electric set up and see if someone can help me figure it out.

    Ken
    Find yourself a cheap, used three phase motor and build a converter... I used one for years until I got the power company to drop another leg in.....Just build it big enough to run your equipment.. Cheers; Ramsay 1

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    Thanks very much, Thermite and Ramsay1.

    I am looking into a rotary phase converter, and motors for building one.

    Sorry I haven't posted photos.

    Ken

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