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Kearney and Trecker Milwaukee 2HL Plain Horizontal Mill

Ken Villars

Plastic
Joined
Aug 29, 2014
Location
California, USA
I am very new to mills, and this is my first post on this forum.

I am considering purchasing a K&T Milwaukee 2HL Plain, and I could use some information and advice.

The mill appears to be in working order (to my brief and uninformed inspection), and comes with a bucket of cutting wheels, two spindles (if that's what they're called - they hold the cutting wheels), and more than a half dozen chucks of various sizes. It has three (working) battery operated DRO sensors, and the cooling system for the cutters pumps fluid. The owner bought a CNC vertical mill, and is making space in his shop. He's asking $600. The machine is fairly local, so transport cost should be best case scenario for me.

I haven't been able to find out much about this machine, but did find a suggestion that I have the owner run it through each gear, forward and reverse, and visually verify that the oil glass shows oil and that the gears are being oiled during operation. Are there any other suggestions for me before I go and do a more thorough inspection?

I primarily intend to use the machine to mill small slots in steel (fitting knife guards for fixed blade knives), and other knife related operations (squaring shoulders of hidden tang knives, eventually milling interior spacers and parts for folding knives, and many precision drilling operations). I plan on asking the owner to run me through milling a few similar slots in some steel I'll take with me next time. As far as larger operations, I may use the machine for manufacturing various jigs and fixtures in the future, once I know more about how to use it (I also make traditional bows and other archery equipment).

The serial number for the machine is 7-3622.

If anybody has any information about the age of the machine, and it's actual weight (I found a suggestion that it might way 3200 lbs), as well as thoughts on its desirability for my intended use or other operations, and pitfalls to avoid when purchasing this machine, I would really appreciate it!

Also, the owner says that he had trouble with the reverse gear when he first purchased it, but had it repaired.

I had been looking at mini mills, but decided I would like to have something that I could do larger work with in the future, and that would last. This machine is far more affordable for me (if it remains in operating condition and will work for my planned uses) than any used vertical mills I've been able to find for sale, which range from a Bridgeport without tooling and in need of repair for $1600 up to a CNC Lagun for $4500; though the $600 will definitely sting if the machine doesn't work out for me.

Thanks!

Ken
 
Welcome to forum Ken:

3622 was a lot of 15 completed April 1942. Being a horizontal, it won't be much good at drilling holes

The '39 full line catalog states the weight is 2700 Lbs

The "spindles" are arbors and you have to have an arbor support to use them. This piece fits on the pair of 2.875" OD over arms
 
Thanks very much, Johnoder and Ramsay! That is good information. It does have both arbor supports. Also, I forgot to mention, the auto feed seems to function. I plan to ask the owner to demonstrate some cutting jobs when I got to inspect it again.

Johnoder, the owner showed me that it could be used to drill holes, by putting a bit in the chuck, and traveling the bed towards the chuck. Is this impractical, stupid, or just awkward? At the minimum, it looks like it will be harder to see what I'm doing… I do have a drill press, so this isn't a deal breaker.

Ramsay, could you elaborate a little? Sounds like you adapted a Bridgeport head and a midgetmill (?) to fit on your horizontal mill?

Very interesting that this is a WWII era machine. Given the weight, if the machine ends up breaking down, I may get a portion of the purchase price in scrap - or is that not feasible?

I would prefer to have it working, obviously!

Any other thought on this machine? I sure appreciate the quick replies! Thanks again!

Ken
 
Keith Fenner has a couple of videos were he talks about his 2HL. They are worth watching if you need a basic overview of the machine, the controls and some of what it can be set up to do. These videos will likely answer a lot of miscellaneous questions for you, and may cause you to think of a few new questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kANvdzoVUfw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD6cL8MMA0E

Keith uses some strange terminology a few places in these, but you get a good overview and the guy does know what to do with that machine.

I have a 2H, which is a larger version of the mill you are looking at. Nice machines and I really like mine. Nice rigid machines. These are like any other machine tool in that condition is key when you are inspecting them. Mine has quite a bit of wear in the table ways, but is otherwise pretty tight. All in all it still turns out very good parts if I do my part.
 
The midgetmill and the Bridgeport head both fit on either my 2hl or 2h with proper bushing ... The midgetmill was made by dalray for just such adaptations and the Bridgeport was adaptable to various overarm configurations....If you want to drill holes, then this is the way to go.. It gives the vertical mill advantage with feeds in every axis along with rapids... Ramsay1 :)
 
I have a 2ch and I drill big holes with it, but if it was my only mill and I couldnt have a few mills then I would pick a vertical. If you are doing knives a BP style mill would be more usefull.
 
As to drilling, I'd use the words awkward and impractical. Impractical because it is so short on space and travel in that direction

Have related (not exactly for 2HL) install and operation manuals if you care to private message me your email address

Here are some links that may be interesting

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/horizontal-mill-lathe-180108/

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/set-up-bore-apron-176541/



Thanks very much, Johnoder and Ramsay! That is good information. It does have both arbor supports. Also, I forgot to mention, the auto feed seems to function. I plan to ask the owner to demonstrate some cutting jobs when I got to inspect it again.

Johnoder, the owner showed me that it could be used to drill holes, by putting a bit in the chuck, and traveling the bed towards the chuck. Is this impractical, stupid, or just awkward? At the minimum, it looks like it will be harder to see what I'm doing… I do have a drill press, so this isn't a deal breaker.

Ramsay, could you elaborate a little? Sounds like you adapted a Bridgeport head and a midgetmill (?) to fit on your horizontal mill?

Very interesting that this is a WWII era machine. Given the weight, if the machine ends up breaking down, I may get a portion of the purchase price in scrap - or is that not feasible?

I would prefer to have it working, obviously!

Any other thought on this machine? I sure appreciate the quick replies! Thanks again!

Ken
 
Wow, you guys are really very helpful. I really appreciate it! I hope my questions aren't too annoying.

11Bravo, thanks for the video links. I can't believe they didn't come up in my searches. I guess I need to do some searches about searching… I am frequently frustrated by being unable to find what I want even with extensive search sessions. Keith's videos were very interesting. He had two attachments I wouldn't have, and I don't know if they would fit on this machine (it is a "plain", not a "universal", if that makes a difference). Very cool to see the inner workings, and some of the projects he was able to do (including the restoration). It was especially helpful to see how the oil was flowing - that will give me something to look at when I inspect this machine again.

Thanks, Ramsay1. That helps. I'll try and do an image search for the mods you mentioned. If you have a snapshot that would be cool, but you've already been very helpful and I don't want to put you to more trouble. I'm just having trouble visualizing how it will fit on this machine. Maybe it clamps to the arbor supports?

Kpotter, I can see what you are saying. There are quite a few Bridgeport style machines out there, but all much more money. Then again, parts and tooling are probably more readily available and less expensive. There is a used CNC Lagun about 3 hours from here for $4500… (Incidentally, same type of machine exactly that the owner of this 2HL bought to replace it) It would be really sweet to have CNC capability, but that is a bit "pie in the sky" for now, and would be quite a risk if it didn't work out, versus $600. This 2HL has power feed and DRO on each of the 3 axis. Hmmm… I guess without CNC, being able to see the work piece would be especially helpful when cutting out intricate parts (for folding knives, for example).

Johnoder, I will PM you my email. Thanks! I checked out your links, and that was very interesting. Much larger holes than I'm talking about (for knives, the holes would be tiny - we're talking pins for full tang handles, for example, which would be 1/4" diameter and less, drilling less than 1 1/2" through), and I'm not sure I understood exactly what I was seeing… I'm guessing on that apron that you were enlarging an existing hole? One thing I saw in your link prompted a thought: Could this 2HL horizontal mill be used to face an anvil? It seems pretty beefy. I guess your manual may tell me maximum weight for a work piece. I also don't know how hard an anvil face is, and if it can be tooled with these cutters; but if it could, I have two anvils that could really use some clean up on the face.

Here's some of my thoughts on the financial aspect of this purchase: Best case scenario, it's in great shape and works longer than I do. Less good case, it operates so-so, but well enough to let me cut guard slots for fixed blade knives for a few years until I replace it (approximately 1/8" wide slots centered in approximately 1/8"-1/4" steel and softer material). Worst case, it dies on me. At that point, I'm trying to figure out how much money I could get back parting out the cutters, arbors, chucks, and anything useful on it (arbor support, etc.)? And how much it might bring from scrap. Subtract that from the purchase price, and there's my risk (other than time and transport). Just for example, say I get $150 back selling off parts, and $200 in scrap (?), I would only have lost $250. Is this just silly? What do you guys think?

Thanks very much for sharing your time and experience!

Ken
 
My experience here with selling KT parts is that your machine is probably worth way more in parts than you paid for it. Lots of old KTs around and people who run them love them and when they break they fix 'em. So don't be too eager to off load it. I've been using a bridge port to make a compound slide and base for my lathe. I could probably have saved about 6 hours of time to use my KT with the right tooling. My 310ch KT had a bad Z axis lead screw which led me far into the machine. I've repaired that and have added rear controls and now working on the motor housing and rapid shaft replacing bearings and such. Need to repair a bearing surface on one shaft so I need to finish repairing my lathe. Well come to the forum, and post some photos of your machine for us to gloat over........enjoy!

Tim
 
I am not sure how familiar you are with mills, so don't take anything as me talking down to you. Some of this is pretty basic, but if you haven't been around it you may not know. I may be rambling a little too. I have been up for a lot of hours and am drinking my second beer right now, winding down so I can sleep.

Universal means that the table can be set at an angle, where the plain mil the table is fixed. That won't affect what heads fit the machine, it only affects what you can do with them. My 2H is a universal, and I have the low lead gearbox on it. The gearbox is what makes the universal machine so much more versatile. The correct Kearney Trecker rotary tables and dividing heads can be driven off the gearbox. This allows spiral milling, like making a helical gear. I will leave anything more technical than that to men like John, Ramsey and a few others here. I have all the parts for mine and the correct accessories, but I honestly am no expert with the machine. I will attach a picture of a universal set so you can see what I am describing.

The 2HL has 2.875" diameter overarms. Any of the heads that accept a 2.875" size overarm will fit the machine you are looking at. With a dividing head you could make a lot of stuff on a plain machine. If you search around a little you can find universal heads and slotting heads. Like Ramsey has already mentioned, you can adapt a Bridgeport or similar head to the K&T. Keith mentions that the slotting head he has is the only one he has ever seen. I must get around a little more because I have seen a couple for the 2HL and I know a guy who has one he would sell. I have a slotting head for my 2H. I don't use it much, but they are pretty neat to have.

If you are drilling small holes that is another strike against doing them on the 2HL. The max speed is only 1400 RPM if I remember correctly. I drill holes with mine sometimes too, but they are big holes. Sometimes I turn the universal head so the bit is parallel with the table and use it that way. Flood coolant and power feed it works pretty good, but I don't do it much.

KPotter is right that for what you want to do a vertical would probably work better for you. Still, the K&T is priced right and will do a ton of stuff, especially if you track down some accessories for it. 40 taper tooling isn't that expensive in my opinion and you get more options than with R-8. The R-8 might be a little cheaper, but in my opinion it isn't a big deal and the 40 taper is a better set up. A vertical would probably work better for most of the work I do too, but I sold my Bridgeport after I got my K&T and I would have a real hard time selling it.

Lots of stuff to learn about these machines. I still learn new things about them all the time.

This is not a very good picture. It is from an E-Bay listing, but surprisingly it is the only one I can find right now.

K&T universal.jpg
 
Hi Ken had another thought, you mentioned possibly having a hard time viewing the cutting action and the work. I wonder if the machine has rear controls? Or if they ever came one the 2h. A gent just sent me a private message offering me a shaft to save me fixing mine. Maybe he has rear controls too. John would know if the machine ever came with rear controls, and if you want me to pass along the gents name and mail box for KT parts (I am sure he's a private party) be glad to. Make no mistake quite a bit of work to install them, but man being able to see right to the "business" is great..

Tim
 
Thanks for the advice, Timvercoe and Ohio Mike. Tim, I am still trying to get this deal figured out and done - I haven't purchased the machine yet. Your advice puts the financials in very good perspective for me. I didn't see any rear controls (machine is backed up to a wall), but I think the owner would have mentioned them. I was thinking about a mirror… If I do buy the machine, I may hit you up for contact info for buying parts.

11 Bravo, that is very helpful, too. No offense taken at all, and yes, I am a total newbie to mills! Johnoder emailed me some manuals, and I am trying to familiarize myself with the way the machine works prior to returning to inspect it.

I hate to try the patience of such helpful people, but I found two cnc machines and I would appreciate your thoughts on them. They are much, much more expensive, and either would be a much bigger risk for me, but I might be able to swing it somehow if it is advisable. The Lagun is about 3 hours from me, and the Acroloc is about an hour away.

Lagun Hdv cnc $4500

Acroloc Cnc $3000

Thanks again.

Ken
 
Ok, did more research and the Acroloc isn't worth looking at. Still finding info on the Lagun. I talked to the guy by phone, and he says it is in great shape. I had the model number wrong (got it off the photo), it's an ftv-2s, has a 5hp motor, and comes with a vice and some tool holders. He's willing to come down on the price, but I'm a bit daunted buy the cost of parts...

I'm going to try and go and carefully inspect the KT2HL tomorrow.

Ken
 
That Lagun is not worth 4500 dollars. If you are going to drill holes with a horizontal make sure they are big holes. The top speed on these things is around 1500 rpm on a ch. I just drilled a 2 inch hole with an insert drill through 4 inches of 4140 like it was a lump of butter.
 
Thanks, Kpotter. Good to know this machine can make big holes! How much do you think that Lagun is worth, just out of curiosity? The guy who owns this KT2HL bought a similar one at a similar price and feels like he got a good deal.

I just got back from my more intensive (if still inexpert) inspection. The oil levels were in the glass but a bit low, and I could see oil flowing in the two glasses that show it (one of the three glasses only shows level, not flow, I think). We also opened the hatch on the right side of the machine and I looked at the gears. I couldn't see any damaged gears, and oil was visible flowing over them with the machine on (some came flying out at me when we turned on the spindle, ha ha). The owner has ATF in the machine, btw.

I could detect little if any slop in the manual cranks in any direction. They seemed to engage the table motion almost immediately (maybe one notch on the crank dial at most?). The owner was very patient and ran the machine through its paces for me. He explained that the spindle speed shouldn't be changed while the machine was running, and showed me several speeds, fast, slow, and reverse. He had replaced the forward and reverse gear (reverse had been broken) when he first purchased the machine. The old forward gear looked good to me. I saw a post in another forum by a guy who has experience with these machines, and he mentioned seeing them broken, but hadn't seen any worn out, even the war era machines.

The powered drive seemed to work well, including the rapid advance. The only hitch I could see was that it took some jiggling to engage the different drive speeds in the mid range (5, 7, 9 inches per minute); but he was able to show me each speed working, forward and reverse. We didn't check every single speed at every axis, but all speeds, and randomly on the various axises all worked well (we checked quite a few).

He put a dial indicator on the table, and traversed it back and forth. I could only see about a half a thousandth or a thousandth change, in the most worn area (middle). That was along a section that looked flat to the eye. One of the long sections next to that showed a very slight bow to my eye, mainly visible in the middle.

The owner cut a slot in 1/2" plate for me, just to show me I could do what I want to do with it. He used about a 3/16" diameter end mill. The tool was parallel to the floor, with the work piece vertical (perpendicular to the floor). In the light of the shop, the cut looked fine to me, but now that I have it at home (he let me take it), I have a question about it. The groove was cut parallel to the the table and floor, and the bottom side (not the deepest part, the part that engaged the side of the tool) of the groove looks clean, but the top part of the cut has grooves and looks strange or sloppy along the work surface edge. I am at a loss to explain this in a rotary tool… It seems like if the machine was sloppy or the work piece moved, the bottom of the groove would also be affected. I don't think it makes a difference, but we didn't cut all the way through the plate, as he broke the tool, running it into the end of the groove (because I was distracting him with many questions). If the tool was old or dull, it seems like the bottom of the groove (directly opposite the strange part of the cut) would have been affected… So, if the piece was oriented on a vertical mill, the clean part of the cut would be on the machine side, and the strange part of the cut on the operator side.

He's disconnecting the machine and moving it to make room for a new machine, so I think that will be my last chance to play with it for free.

What do you guys think?

Thanks.

Ken
 
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Cutting a groove requires that you take a finish pass on each side of the groove if you want each side to look the same.

A reason for this ESPECIALLY with a 3/16 end mill is DEFLECTION (the 2HL did not realize the end mill was BENDING, and he apologizes :D)

Sounds like a winner. Have it at your place yet?

When you do, get the ATF out, do a flush with solvent, and put in Mobil DTE Heavy Medium like called for.
 








 
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