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  1. #81
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    So - unless off a bit for back lash, center distance is (2.875 + 3.000) / 2 = 2.9375

    Looking at Post #35, cosine helix angle would be (24 +23) / 2 X 2.9375 X Pn

    24 + 23 = 47

    Using 9 for Pn (normal pitch) we get 47 / 52.875 = .888888

    Cos = .8888888

    Helix angle = 27.266 degrees

    check on transverse pitch, which should be close to 8 DP (because there are 24 of them on a 3.000" pitch circle)

    9 X .888888 = 7.999999 TP

    There you go

    If you were doing this on your handy-dandy mill we would figure LEADS for you to set up for

    Post 80 shows 3.094 OD. 2.875 plus two 9DP addendums would be 3.097

    Gear being made for spindle, checked by Andy as 3.219 (Post #63), is theoretically 3.222 OD (3.000 plus two 9DP addendums)

    Do note in Post # 1 spindle gear is right hand spiral while head gear in Post #80 is left hand spiral
    Last edited by johnoder; 08-26-2018 at 08:47 PM.

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  3. #82
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    check on transverse pitch, which should be close to 8 DP (because there are 24 of them on a 3.000" pitch circle)

    9 X .888888 = 7.999999 TP
    Using CIRCULAR PITCH would be another way to show the same result

    9DP has a circular pitch of .349066"

    .349066 / .888888 = .392699" or the circular pitch of 8 DP
    Last edited by johnoder; 09-07-2018 at 09:19 AM.

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  5. #83
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    Many thanks
    So I still need a gear ? Is anyone here willing to make one ? Is there enough info for a drawing , or enough info to send to a gear maker ?

    Many thanks Daniel

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    Default K&T gear MAYBE ?

    Thanks again
    While looking into having a gear made , I found out there is a add on to my Fusion 360 , for helical gears , installed the add on , and kind of a fill in the blank with that great info Johnoder had figured for me , and when I hit the button , look what came up(see pic)

    So with that I have a model , and I am going to see if I can CAM 1 tooth , the bottom , both sides ,top of one side , Then try to run it in my 3 axis CNC ? rotate the rotary table 15 degrees , hit cycle start , repeat , etc etc ? maybe I could make a gear ? I am thinking maybe a tapered 1/8 end mill , time is not a big deal , if I can make a gear ?

    WHAT DOES EVERYBODY THINK ?

    ITEM #2
    I have been in email contact with a China gear maker , sent pic's , as much info as I could , He , Andrew , said it would cost too much , they would have to make a cutter 7 to 8 hundred dollars , then with material and making the gear would be one thousand dollars. But lets say if 4 of us wanted one that would reduce the cost to 400 , the more gears the less money.

    I have American quotes from 1400 to 2900 , most say send me both gears for a quote , I I would bet , they too would have to have a special cutter made , that would drive the cost up. The 1400 quote comes from a K&T drawing , the guy will not turn the drawing loose (cant blame him)but will have it made for the 1400

    PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK

    Thanks Daniel

    Quote Originally Posted by unobtainum gear View Post
    Many thanks
    So I still need a gear ? Is anyone here willing to make one ? Is there enough info for a drawing , or enough info to send to a gear maker ?

    Many thanks Daniel
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails gear.jpg  

  7. #85
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    PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK
    Make a plastic one and see if you and the machinery like it. Then one from more stout material able to do some work

    Then try to run it in my 3 axis CNC ? rotate the rotary table 15 degrees , hit cycle start , repeat , etc etc ? maybe I could make a gear ?
    Good luck there. Going to be one complex tool path with no fourth axis.
    Last edited by johnoder; 09-19-2018 at 06:56 AM.

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  9. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by unobtainum gear View Post
    PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK
    I think the whole lot of us are OVER thinking it. K&T built superb helical gears and spacer disks into a head as could last a hundred years and more in 24 X 6 service - if such were possible. My one is 3/4 the way home to that, and as with most? Has clearly been worked, and hard. And has also obviously sat idle a good part of its life.

    K&T had never learned HOW to build anything that did not last longer than everyone else's mills. Why would they bother startignwhen they introduced the heads?

    NOW? Few of us will use these heads as much in the rest of our lives as they were used in a single month, 24 X 6 wartime production. Maybe not even a single three-shift DAY!

    So..

    Sod it.

    Replace BOTH gears. Use stock, off the shelf, straight-cut spur. Take any DP and ratio that will fit "decently".

    Adjust the RPM on the machine. Baby it if the mesh is a tad loose. Timesaver work-in under influence of an offboard 'lectric motor if a tad tight. Make ONE straight-cut spur to fit a stock one if you must do. Bastard cut? So WHAT? You ain't going into mass production.

    Spoon-feeding Clover compound into the gearsets for each corner of a 4-wheel drive vehicle that very way got Mickey Thompson past the 400 mile per hour mark.

    It should be good enough to make a few chips without need of taking out a second mortgage on yer Gulfstream IV. Cometh a point, if this bugger costs too much, you are better off to have never acquired it to begin with.

    Cheaper to go find an entire head that is NOT missing its crucial gearset, yah? Guess what? It doesn't even have to be a K&T head! K&T didn't originally make their own anway. They bought them-in. Then bought the maker.

    Keep looking for already-made K&T gears to put it back right. Someday. Maybe. They will only show up when you QUIT looking, after all.


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    If I supplied an epoxy splash of my drive gear.....Why can’t this gear be roughed with an involute cutter & finish cut with a custom ground fly cutter on a horizontal mill?

    If it helps any, the quotes for the worms & wheels on my 2CHL low lead were crazy expensive also. It’s unbelievable how much they charge for some thread milling.

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    It’s unbelievable how much they charge for some thread milling.
    Andy
    Why do you think so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Why do you think so?
    Supply and demand.

    In my specific situation, it doesn’t take specialized high dollar tooling or extensive machining qualifications to make the parts that I need. It took me 2 months of hunting and pecking to collect the machines so I’ll be making them myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    Supply and demand.
    In my specific situation, it doesn’t take specialized high dollar tooling or extensive machining qualifications to make the parts that I need. It took me 2 months of hunting and pecking to collect the machines so I’ll be making them myself.
    I think you point out one of the more common misconceptions about it.

    Truth of the matter is that there is a fair amount of hobby level people that are willing to accept less than what is commonly regarded as quality work at the professional level. As such, they often expect a professional shop to be willing to accommodate their hobby level desires about economy and expediency acquired through shortcuts and half measures. And on the opposite side of the potential transaction is the professional that is often reticent to allow such examples to leave their shop for the impact upon their good name or standing.

    Who wants to be known as the shop that makes hobby level quality?


    Hobby people seldom care that their Worm Wheels are accurate to tenths of form and arc seconds of spacing. But professionals don't get that luxury and the machines and methods are not ones that lend themselves to changing a setting from "good" to "acceptable". So they have to charge what they charge everyone. Regardless of whom the customer is.

    Now, this is not to say that often times hobby level people coddling antiquated machinery don't some times get taken advantage of. Fact of the matter is that they're no different than anyone else in any other situation. The onus is upon them to shop around and find the right vendor.

    I know several people that run right to Rush Gear and then after recovering from the shock, find fault with the whole industry. They're all the same. Right?

    The bottom line is that even people with some mild experience in the industry can still be our own worst enemies for the stigmas they help to continue perpetuating. Not the least of those is that Machinists and shops should still make less than entry level wrench spinners in an automotive shop.

    How many hours are in the creation of a good Worm and Wheel pair? How much is the quality material? And what does the hobbyist expect to pay? These are often at odds with each other. That does not make it crazy or expensive.

    Personal example -

    We ( and I am the one making the choice ) only purchase Hobs of Class A or Class AA quality. Period. The only exception to that is when a customer print specifies a specific Hob that they desire to be used. Now, it is common knowledge that one can purchase chinese hobs of shit quality. Should we price everything as if we use such crap tooling? And even with that knowledge, why in the world would anyone purchase such a thing ( much less use it ) when they have better Hobs on hand? Better to give the customer something better than they expect, than something lesser. One seldom ever hears appreciation for exceeding someone's expectations. But BOY HOWDY do we all hear about it when someone fails their expectations!!!


    I used to bend over backwards to help people with gears and associated quandaries. And ( to a large extent ), I still do. But nowhere near the way I used to. Had that firmly beaten right out of me. No good deed goes unpunished. Like the saying goes, "Some people you just can't help... "

    Our very own Dan from Oakland posted his willingness to assist, right here in this very thread. And, yet we still see this thread beleagueredly crawling along... Why do you suppose that is? His requests were fairly simple. Yet... here we are...

    We recently ran a flash sale on some of the Monarch 10EE Metric Threading Gear Kits we make. It was a one time occurrence, strictly to raise money for a charity. I took THIRTY FIVE PERCENT off the price. Imagine my surprise and amusement when I opened my email to learn that I was robbing people and a collection of 13 quality made gears was not worth nearly that price.

    Just a few things to consider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    I think you point out one of the more common misconceptions about it.

    Truth of the matter is that there is a fair amount of hobby level people that are willing to accept less than what is commonly regarded as quality work at the professional level. As such, they often expect a professional shop to be willing to accommodate their hobby level desires about economy and expediency acquired through shortcuts and half measures. And on the opposite side of the potential transaction is the professional that is often reticent to allow such examples to leave their shop for the impact upon their good name or standing.

    Who wants to be known as the shop that makes hobby level quality?


    Hobby people seldom care that their Worm Wheels are accurate to tenths of form and arc seconds of spacing. But professionals don't get that luxury and the machines and methods are not ones that lend themselves to changing a setting from "good" to "acceptable". So they have to charge what they charge everyone. Regardless of whom the customer is.

    Now, this is not to say that often times hobby level people coddling antiquated machinery don't some times get taken advantage of. Fact of the matter is that they're no different than anyone else in any other situation. The onus is upon them to shop around and find the right vendor.

    I know several people that run right to Rush Gear and then after recovering from the shock, find fault with the whole industry. They're all the same. Right?

    The bottom line is that even people with some mild experience in the industry can still be our own worst enemies for the stigmas they help to continue perpetuating. Not the least of those is that Machinists and shops should still make less than entry level wrench spinners in an automotive shop.

    How many hours are in the creation of a good Worm and Wheel pair? How much is the quality material? And what does the hobbyist expect to pay? These are often at odds with each other. That does not make it crazy or expensive.

    Personal example -

    We ( and I am the one making the choice ) only purchase Hobs of Class A or Class AA quality. Period. The only exception to that is when a customer print specifies a specific Hob that they desire to be used. Now, it is common knowledge that one can purchase chinese hobs of shit quality. Should we price everything as if we use such crap tooling? And even with that knowledge, why in the world would anyone purchase such a thing ( much less use it ) when they have better Hobs on hand? Better to give the customer something better than they expect, than something lesser. One seldom ever hears appreciation for exceeding someone's expectations. But BOY HOWDY do we all hear about it when someone fails their expectations!!!


    I used to bend over backwards to help people with gears and associated quandaries. And ( to a large extent ), I still do. But nowhere near the way I used to. Had that firmly beaten right out of me. No good deed goes unpunished. Like the saying goes, "Some people you just can't help... "

    Our very own Dan from Oakland posted his willingness to assist, right here in this very thread. And, yet we still see this thread beleagueredly crawling along... Why do you suppose that is? His requests were fairly simple. Yet... here we are...

    We recently ran a flash sale on some of the Monarch 10EE Metric Threading Gear Kits we make. It was a one time occurrence, strictly to raise money for a charity. I took THIRTY FIVE PERCENT off the price. Imagine my surprise and amusement when I opened my email to learn that I was robbing people and a collection of 13 quality made gears was not worth nearly that price.

    Just a few things to consider.
    Sir?

    That post was as precise, accurate, and well-made as ...the finest of gear sets.

    Well said!

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    Supply and demand.

    In my specific situation, it doesn’t take specialized high dollar tooling or extensive machining qualifications to make the parts that I need. It took me 2 months of hunting and pecking to collect the machines so I’ll be making them myself.
    Shall we expect to see spoked wheel and lantern pinion, then? Good enough for a fine Thomas Tompion clock, why not an ignorant mill, yah?

    A drill press is cheating, but its all you need.

    Mind, the life expectancy and power transfer capability falls a wee bit, just the least LITTLE bit, not so one would notice, SHORT of that of a well-crafted helical gear. But they are CHEAP enough.

    Especially if one uses wooden dowels instead of over-priced steel. Worked OK for wind and water powered mills, the wooden ones did.

    Mind, they do take up rather a lot of space for rather less of power. But there you have it.

    Those damned compromises...


  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    Supply and demand.

    In my specific situation, it doesn’t take specialized high dollar tooling or extensive machining qualifications to make the parts that I need. It took me 2 months of hunting and pecking to collect the machines so I’ll be making them myself.
    You may not have the same quality gear that was made by Kearney and Trecker, but you will at least have the difference between having an operating vertical head and a boat anchor....Got my 2hl from Navy surplus, got the low lead attachment and involute cutters from Ebay...Had fun doing it all and that is what it is all about.. Enjoy! Ramsay 1

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  20. #94
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    Daniel PM'd

    If you could please let me know what you think of these new numbers.
    Dan, sounds like you have not spent any time reading my post 81, which references other posts which you also have to read and understand

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    Red face Drive gear

    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    daniel

    dan, sounds like you have not spent any time reading my post 81, which references other posts which you also have to read and understand
    what is the problem 24 teeth .190 deep 17 in lead angle rotate table 29.5 deg and cut gear.

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  23. #96
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    So you have mad this gear , like the one I need ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by unobtainum gear View Post
    So you have mad this gear , like the one I need ?
    Dan, you have an offer from an actual in-the-business gear maker in post #38. He will need your 23 tooth gear and the fact that the center distance is 2.9375".

    He can even look at the "specs" in Post # 81 if he likes

    The great thing about Dan (the gear maker) is he will have the info to make the next 24 tooth needed for a 1H/1CH/2HL/2CHL

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    Quote Originally Posted by unobtainum gear View Post
    So you have mad this gear , like the one I need ?
    Ummh..

    Virginians can be notoriously hard-headed, but when a Texan has to tell you twice that a Californian has been trying to solve your problem for you?

    It's time to move to Morgantown, WEST BY GOD Virginia and teach Stubborn Classes, Post-Graduate Level, WVU!

    You've earned a PhD in it.


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    Thank you all for all the help. I had PM'd John Oder in hopes that he would read between the lines , Where did you come up with these numbers? Daniel ? Now I feel I have to share what's going on. I have a private source that has provided me with a K&T drawing , and some of those numbers dont agree with the info John Oder had provided , the very numbers I used to draw the gear in fusion 360 . I did promise my source not to share the drawing , and am going to keep my word . But I need to know how to convert the numbers , to plug into fusion 360 , so I may "try " to make a gear in the 3 axis cnc , I am new to that also , it's more about the chase , life would go on even without the K&T , it's fun to try to resolve this. THANK all of you for helping , I did look and study the numbers John Oder had provided , and am grateful for all the help he has given , although I do not understand it completely , and would be no where with out it. Please don't get upset , there is a reason , and now you know the rest of the story.

    Thanks Again John Oder and everyone else.
    Now how to convert those numbers ???,,,,

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    Default Just a crumb

    I hope this is not giving away too much , but seems real to me ?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails crumb.jpg  


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