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Pacemaker with a knock in the headstock...

jkilroy

Diamond
Joined
Jul 23, 2004
Location
Vicksburg, MS
Hi Fella's, long time no post on my end. My Pacemaker, a 16x54, late 40's vintage, has developed a knock in the headstock. I took off the lid, put the machine in neautral and spun the spindle by hand and I can't feel or hear anything, which is good news. If the spindle bearings are toast this thing is going to get parted out and scrapped.

In low range the noise seems to be in time with the counter shaft, faster than spindle speed. BTW, this is all with the gearbox offline so no gearbox noise. I need to get a better look into the headstock and was wondering this. Can the "cage" that sits on top of the headstock, see pics, be removed in one piece, as in take out the bolts and lift off?

Any tips or tricks in working on these things? Anyone know of any online service literature?
 

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Thanks Mr. Oder, I hope all is well over in Houston.

I did a little more digging today. I got the machine in neutral and ran it and the noise is the same without the spindle moving so it seems to be coming from one of the counter shafts. Also, the oil pump is pumping a lot of air. Its like there is one good shot of lube then then next is a bubbly mess, then good oil, then a bubbly mess. I looked online and can't find anything approaching a service manual. Is Mike C. from Birmingham still on this board? He always had lots of Pacemaker info handy.

Thanks to Greg Menke for hosting my parts book:

A look thru here may be educational, even if not exactly for your vintage

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/docs/atw/atw-pacemaker-parts-bulletin-20-1966.pdf
 
I have torn into a few of these machines, it may be a loose key, I had a lathe making clunking noises and I thought bearings but it was just a loose key. It sucked fixing it but it didnt cost anything to repair just a few hours up to my elbows in gears. The clutch has some stuff that can make a racket in there as well. Is it just making noise or is it not running in all the gears.
 
Since the knock occurs all the time I would suspect that the drive pulley is the cause . If the drive pulley is not tight on the shaft I will knock once per revolution.
I just fixed on like that last week. Someone at one time hit the shaft end with some sand paper so the pulley would go on easier. It finallly beat itself loose and started to knock.

John
 
Thanks guys, both good things to check. I'll slack the belts tomorrow and pull them off and take a look at the input pulley. The noise really sounds like its coming from the head stock, but the with drive shaft coming from the clutch, I guess the noise could be pushed up in there. Tell you what, I will video the machine tomorrow and post something that lets you hear the noise.
 
I have pulled the back tray off the top of mine ( the one closes to the belts). it comes off easy. pull the 4 bolts and the oil feed tube that dumps oil on the tray, the. just lift up on it. the forks just stay on the tray and pull off the gears that they slide. the front tray I think is about the same but you need to pull the speed setting shifter. if you pull the plate that shows the speeds you can detach it. I think that's all you need to do for the front but I haven't removed mine. once you pull the back you can get a good look down in the bottom if you drain the oil. there is 2 screws in the back I think for doing that. if you need some pictures to com pair parts too send me a PM. I have mine (1947 16x54 with a 2000 rpm head stock and the lead screw reverse) all apart for painting and I can pull the cover and tray easily to get some pics.

I hope you don't need to part it but if you do decide to part it let me know. I could use some parts for the one I'm restoring.
 
I am jealous, lead screw reverse! That is always a feature I am on the lookout for. Very few Pacemakers seem to have it. Thanks for the tips, let me take this video to get the noise captured and then I will drain the headstock and remove that rear tray.

Jay

I have pulled the back tray off the top of mine ( the one closes to the belts). it comes off easy. pull the 4 bolts and the oil feed tube that dumps oil on the tray, the. just lift up on it. the forks just stay on the tray and pull off the gears that they slide. the front tray I think is about the same but you need to pull the speed setting shifter. if you pull the plate that shows the speeds you can detach it. I think that's all you need to do for the front but I haven't removed mine. once you pull the back you can get a good look down in the bottom if you drain the oil. there is 2 screws in the back I think for doing that. if you need some pictures to com pair parts too send me a PM. I have mine (1947 16x54 with a 2000 rpm head stock and the lead screw reverse) all apart for painting and I can pull the cover and tray easily to get some pics.

I hope you don't need to part it but if you do decide to part it let me know. I could use some parts for the one I'm restoring.
 
Just found this one. Yeah, I'm still lurking around here, J. Unfortunately, I had to leave my beloved Pacemaker at the last job, 2 1/2yrs ago. I miss that machien every time I make a pass on a piece of work.

Just my thoughts. If it isn't at half the spindle speed, it is probably NOT spindle bearings. I think you have a bad transmission bearing. If it changes directly relative to spindle speed, it would have to be a transmission issue on the output side. The motor input shaft would be constant speed, so no change there no matter what the spindle speed. If it only changes in some speed, it may be an intermediate shaft bearing. By looking at the shifters and figuring which gears are moving that causes this noise to change or go away, you should be able to sort it out.

As for the oil pump, sounds like you have a blocked inlet, a bad check valve, or shot seals in the pump.
 
Hi Mike, I was wondering where you had been, had no idea you changed jobs? You move to another shop? The noise is relative to spindle speed but a lot slower, so I am guessing you are right. Peering down in the head stock, there is a bearing on the main counter shaft that is moving in and out of its pocket as it turns so I am guessing that is the culprit. Soon as I have some time I am going to be tearing into this thing. I will be sure to take lots of pictures. Where, exactly, *is* the oil pump? I am guessing down near the bottom of the headstock sump? Is it possible from the exterior of the machine or am I looking at a significant tear down to get to the pump?
 
Yeah, I left the pump shop about tow and a half years ago and went to work for a hard chrome plate shop that does hydraulic work and rolls, etc... More interesting work, no sewage soaked parts and pays a lot better.

I have never torn into the headstock of a Pacemaker... never had any need to. I did have to gut a Cincy Hydrashift a few months back, though. Not quite as massive as a Pacemaker, but very similar, otherwise (minus the hydraulic shifting). I was kind of intimidated as I realized what I had gotten myself into, but the further I went, the more I saw it was no big deal. Just use common sense and have at it.

Sadly, most instructions in any case start with "remove the spindle" at about step 3. Just dive in and knock it out, man. You'll be fine and you'll be glad you did when you fix everything else you find that needs attention. It's been that way on everything I have gone into.

No idea where the oil pump is in one. One of those "if it works, don't $%*^ with it" deals.
 
the oil pump is on the back side of the spindle as you are standing in front of the machine. it is driven off a shaft that is in line with the belt pulley. from what I can tell there is just 2 Allen headed bolts holding it in place. you will also need to remove the hard oil line I think. from there it look like you can slide it forward off the drive shaft coming from the belt drive and pull it up through the top.

another thing to check is the oil filter. on the back of the head stock there should be a small "t" handle. to clean the oil filter you spin this a few times. there is a few bolts that hold it in place. if you pull those you can slide the whole filter out and give it a once over. I have mine out if you want some pics. there an interesting setup. it's similar to a bunch of plates stacked up like radiator fins. when you spin the handle it has fingers that run I between the fine and clean them out. maybe yours are plugged and not allowing oil to but sucked through fast enough.
 
the oil pump is on the back side of the spindle as you are standing in front of the machine. it is driven off a shaft that is in line with the belt pulley. from what I can tell there is just 2 Allen headed bolts holding it in place. you will also need to remove the hard oil line I think. from there it look like you can slide it forward off the drive shaft coming from the belt drive and pull it up through the top.

another thing to check is the oil filter. on the back of the head stock there should be a small "t" handle. to clean the oil filter you spin this a few times. there is a few bolts that hold it in place. if you pull those you can slide the whole filter out and give it a once over. I have mine out if you want some pics. there an interesting setup. it's similar to a bunch of plates stacked up like radiator fins. when you spin the handle it has fingers that run I between the fine and clean them out. maybe yours are plugged and not allowing oil to but sucked through fast enough.

Re the " Filtricator "- don't ever take one apart to clean the plates etc. They're a pig to put back together again. Regards Tyrone.
 
I was wondering if you were the Kilroy that did the tube videos. thanks for doing those. I enjoy watching and learning from them. one thing I noticed on my lathe ( same 27 sped headstock) was that all the gears were rounded on the ends that slide together.

sucks to here about the lathe. hopefully you can find a parts lathe some place. how bad was it to pull the chuck side tray and forks out of the head. I was thinking about doing it just to look everything over.

does your lathe have the 2 speed motor on it? if you do find a parts lathe and it has one of the 10hp motor I would be interested in it. I think I need to swap mine out since I found out what the price to rewind it is. I could also go just to a single speed motor also and just run the 27 speeds insted of the 54 that it would have.
 
If you don't have to pull that tray out, don't do it. Getting it back in is going to be a serious pain in the hind end. I don't think you would really have an issue with *only* 27 speeds, and a single speed motor will be a ton cheaper and smaller than a double. Does your lathe have the motor behind the head stock or under it in the base?
 








 
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