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Lodge & Shipley, just one more time.

Denny Graham

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Location
Sandwich, IL
Bought my L&S 16" lathe about 25 years ago. I've set it up and moved it a
couple of times, doing some restoration all along the way. At one time before my
last move all the bare metal was polished but the first year in my new place put
me in what was before me, a horse barn. It was so damp in the barn the first
winter that every thing rusted up on me no matter how much or what kind of oil
I wiped the machines down with. In all those years I never got it to the point
where I could use it.
I'm finally settled in at Dun Rovin now, and there won't be another move in my
future as I'm in my 70's. I'd like to finally get it set up and running now that
I'm retired and have the time to work on it.
I'm not sure when it was made, nor the exact model, as I've never seen one
exactly like it. It's serial number is 13788 so my guess is it was made some
time in the early part of the century, maybe in the teens. In the early days
of the internet I searched for a few years but there wasn't much info on these
early L&S lathes available back then. Now a couple of decades later, the
internet has grown up so I thought I'd take another stab at locating some
information on this old lathe. I've recently down loaded a few catalogs and
brochures from 1910, 1915, 1926 but haven't found this model in any of them.
Here are a few pictures of it, in my ad free album:
Lodge & Shipley sn13788 01.JPG photo - dennygraham photos at pbase.com
The stumbling blocks for me have been the top cover where there apparently was
a motor mounted at one time, the clutch at the out side of the head stock and
the missing gears and I assume, cover under the clutch. The clutch drum contains
a ring gear which I assume was driven by either the motor direct or thru some
sort of jack shaft. I'm guessing that it would have had to have a 2hp to 5hp
motor originally? At some time in it's life it looks like a twin groove V-belt
pulley was shrunk on to the clutch drum in place of the gear drive.
In the gear train, there appears to be a bracket of some sort missing as is the
cover?
I'd sure like to see this old lathe run before I run out of time so any help at
all would really be appreciated.

Thanks,
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL
 
I was hoping you would jump in here John. I've been unable after many many
frustrating tries to access the Yahoo L&S site that I followed for some time.
Never got any answers that would help over there anyway so I dropped out of it
about a decade back and shelved the L&S lathe restoration.
I think that picture might just be one that I posted way back then. That looks
just like the setting that was in the corner of my old shop. I'd sure like to see
a picture or illustration of how the original motor was mounted on that lathe. I
had tried several ideas for a motor and now that I have 240vac 3-phase in the shop
I can power up with a pretty good size motor. Before I gave up I had been
designing a belt driven jack shaft with a driven gear. Though that would work
kind of as a safety brake in case something ever locked up, that is, the belt
would slip before a gear broke.
I was hoping that ten years later there might be more info available on that
lathe. It's 95% complete excepting for the change gears and their cover. I'm
hoping that I have the humidity problem under control to some degree and I'll
be back on the buffing wheel to try to stay ahead of the red-plague.
Back when I was on the Yahoo Groups site I was looking for some incite into the
workings of the clutch. I would like to learn a little more about it before I
open it up to restore it. With my Logan 10" and Bridgeport if I need any missing
parts I can fab them......if I can see what the original parts looked like.

Is there a listing online of the SN history for L&S? I'm also into restoration of
old Chevy trucks and there is a ton of that sort of data online.

Thanks for checking in on this thread.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL
 
Is there a listing online of the SN history for L&S?

Used to be - it went away - at least the link I had

Here are scans of the only "guts" illustrations I have ever seen

From February 1926

I own one of the Yahoo group L&S sites, but I always advise the joiner-uppers that they need to come over here instead. :D
 

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Thanks for the scans, that gives me a little more idea of whats inside
the clutch and how it should come apart, that is without breaking
something. This scan only shows two shift levers, mine as do the very
early Selective head machines, have three. It's been a decade since
I've had the top cover off the head stock. I need to pull it apart
and document with some photos and draft a schematic of the gear path.
I was hoping I'd find someone now that there are a lot more guys on
here, that had one like this where I could get some detailed info.
But thanks for the help.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL
 
Can't tell much by that one John because of the covers, but thanks anyway.
Looked a little closer and see the other lever in that illustration.
So.....it looks like they didn't change them to much from the very earliest
to the page you posted of the one in the 20's. Maybe a little re-sculpting
of the cover.
I need to sit down and do some serious study of the change gears to see what
I can come up with. I think I can get Spur gears from SDP or Martin
that will work if I can get their brackets and tooth count right.
Got my 2J Bridgeport together and running and this winter my mind's
made up to get the L&S in shape also.
Thanks again, I'm grateful for anything that I can find on this lathe.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL
 
That photo, i.e.,#5 from 2012 that Lee posted of the change gears
on his machine, is one more piece to the puzzle. I have no interest
in ever machining metric with this machine as most of the article
addresses. But other than tooth count the gear arrangement would
be the same.

I believe I've got the gears, at least these were in one of the
boxes when I bought the basket case:
Lodge & Shipley sn13788 09.JPG photo - dennygraham photos at pbase.com
The problem is, this machine was in pieces when I got it, as the PO
had started to restore it. The bed and saddle had been professionally
scraped at a machinery rebuilder up in Rockford, IL but nothing
else had been done after that. I've hung the change gears the way
I thought they might go just using some standard long bolts. There
obviously are some sort of bushings or studs and retainers that
they piloted on that are missing. Those are easily made if that's
the case and if I can get a conformation. It would seem logical
that even though changes were made in the early stages of the
selective head design, that the general change gear arrangement
would be quite similar.

And the way the casting is machined on it's face, makes me think
that there was some sort of cover over the change gears on this
machine. Again, that's missing and I've no idea what that would
have looked like. Probably a casting of some design.

In my photo you can see a square boss at the very top with a
vertical key machined into it. I think this may have been for a
belt idler bracket???? But this machine had a gear driving clutch
drum originally. It's possible that the cover was made to accept
several drive options depending on how the shop was to power it.
Many that I've seem pictures of, have the motor mounted on top of
the head with a 3" belt driving the clutch drum and the idler is
mounted in a similar place on the head. Some were no doubt, belt
driven on a production line with overhead lineshafts. In my case
it appears that it was a geared motor rather than belt driven,
probably intended for a small job shop or tool room.
dg
 
Yep, cast iron bushes for the gears. If you look close at the plate, you will see counterbores around the tapped holes for the inner end of these bushes to sit it, and if you look even closer, you will see oil holes in those counterbores to feed oil grooves in the bushes to keep the gear bores happy.

In short, the plate has an OIL CHAMBER that communicates with the various oil holes and you FEED it oil right there by the shiny handle

Yes, various drives, and various covers to cover gear train. These got bigger as years went by in the sake of safety. The first Lodgies sold in the NINETIES had no gear covers anywhere, and we suppose men that ran them just came to work with good sense about the possibilities.

Here is a belted motor set up from 1916 - showing the later headstock

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/johnoder/L and S 1916 Catalog/LSpg21.jpg
 
I downloaded the entire catalog, which I believe you posted, a while back for my reference
files, thanks to you. And that's one of the illustrations that I was referring to that shows the
idler bracket. I’ve not had a chance to go thru the whole catalog page by page. This page is
helpful in that it does give the motor size and speed for a 16”’lathe which was one of my
questions. I’ve got a nice 2hp 3-phase motor sitting on the shelf just waiting for a home.
2-3hp at 900rpm is the recommendation. Now a days It would be a little hard to find one
that runs that slow, but I think thru my drive gear or belts I might be able to slow down the
apparent motor speed to equal 900. There is enough room on top of that head I can always
use a jack shaft to get my drive speed. As I said earlier, I did start to layout a jack shaft and
I also bought a matching drive gear from Martin some time back….probably 20 years ago.
Lodge & Shipley sn13788 23.JPG photo - dennygraham photos at pbase.com

I’m working in an unheated barn and the temps been down around zero this week. I’ll try to
get out there and take a look at the bracket and look for those counter bores. I have a piece
of cast iron round stock about a foot long in my stock room and I was trying to remember
what I’d bought that for. I’ll bet I bought it just for those bushings way back when. At 73 I’m
dang lucky I can remember to put my pants on.
When I look at Lees picture and some others that I’ve seen, I wonder what all the extra
extensions or protrusions are that I see holding the gears on. I would expect simply a
retaining washer of some sort.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL
 
I wonder what all the extra
extensions or protrusions are that I see holding the gears on

The lower one, on the post #5 and your photo, is the "SLIP" gear. You position it - IN or OUT - for differing ranges of threads/feeds. Talks about such things in tiny text on your brass chart riveted to the range gear box
 
Thanks John, you've been a big help in getting me motivated again.
Maybe this time I'll get the old gal up and running again. I see
lots of uses for it in the vintage truck restoration that I do.

The biggest challenge to me are these little details. This holds
true with any of the trucks, metal or wood working tools that I've
restored or saved from the scrap heap.
I'd rather use these old machines with all their quirks and inaccuracy.
I can work around lot's of slop and can compensate for it, where
one depending on one for a living can't afford that.
instead of those new offshore machines. They just have a more solid
feel to them and for a back yard mechanic/machinist old is just
fine and dandy. Some of my present day machinist friends scoff at
my old round ram Bridgeport but it's served me well for nearly half
a century.
Some of these machines are like old friends who you know all their
faults but still can be trusted with your own short comings.

Temps are up in the 30's today, that means I can fire up the barrel
stove and warm up my hands when they go numb. Got a lot of little
lathe projects lined up for the Logan. I might not get another
decent day till March so I'd better get to work.
Thanks again for the tips and advice. Anything else you run across or
that anyone else can add, I'm all ears still, at least till I know
it all, tsk, tsk.

By the way....anyone know how to set the time zone in your profile?
It's not 4:42 PM here but 10:42 AM.
dg
 
Used to be - it went away - at least the link I had

Here are scans of the only "guts" illustrations I have ever seen

From February 1926

I own one of the Yahoo group L&S sites, but I always advise the joiner-uppers that they need to come over here instead. :D


Here a link to some serial numbers by year. This one shows your L&S as a 1912 though, maybe this list is wrong. Lodge & Shipley Machine Tool Co. - Products Manufacturerd | VintageMachinery.org


Johnoder- for comparisons sake what do you have for a year on serial number 41960?
 
Pretty sure they are the same - the whole issue is that for several years I have assumed the number listed was the LAST serial for a given year, not the first as Andy's info is explicit about.

My assumption came from the oft quoted Serial Book which is explicit about the numbers listed being the LAST for that year

Here a link to some serial numbers by year. This one shows your L&S as a 1912 though, maybe this list is wrong. Lodge & Shipley Machine Tool Co. - Products Manufacturerd | VintageMachinery.org


Johnoder- for comparisons sake what do you have for a year on serial number 41960?
 
Thanks Andy, never thought to look over there, even though I spend a
lot of time looking thru the site.

Did some clean up and measurement this afternoon. I found one gear
with a bushing in it.
Lodge & Shipley Change Gear Bushing photo - dennygraham photos at pbase.com
The bracket does have counterbores in it but this bushing has no boss
to fit in the counterbore.
Is there anyone in the group that has a selective head L&S that I can
talk into pulling one of the gears to check on the bushing dimensions???

Also, I'm not sure if the bushing that I have here is cast iron or
steel. I don't want to grind on it or do any destructive test to
determine it's composition. If it's cast iron, I can get bar stock
from McMaster to make the others that I need.
Thanks,
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL
 
Cleaned things up this morning and did a bit of checking with that
bushing that was in the box with the gears. When I snug up the bolt it pinches
the gear so it's to short. Apparently its from another machine or was
modified for some reason by someone.
Change gear clean up/fit up photo - dennygraham photos at pbase.com
John, I'm surprised that they would use different pilot bushings for
different sized machines. I can under stand the size of the gears
being different because of the different location of the in and out
shafts, but it only seems logical that they would use the same bore
and thickness gears to standardize a part, i.e., the bushings.

I've ordered a stick of cast iron round stock from McMaster to make
up a set of pilot bushings. When I was checking the thickness of the
three gears I found that they vary by .015". Which means the bushings
have to be different lengths. It's not from wear and spur gears
really don't have any axial loading to speak of.

I'm going to put about a 1/16" pilot on the new bushings.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL
 
Now that I've got some pieces falling into place on this L&S lathe, I wonder if we can talk about choice of material for replacement parts.

I'm going to have to make pilot bushings for the change gears to run
on. Two of the gears appear to be cast and two machined from billet
steel. I don't think there will be any disagreement that cast iron
runs best on a steel shaft and a steel shaft runs best on cast iron.
That being said, are the bushings indeed cast iron that the gears run
on? And or were the steel gears run on cast bushings and the cast
gears run on steel bushes?
dg
 








 
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