Lodge and Shipley Powerturn falls out of high feed gear

vonblowseph · Sep 2, 2016

TGIF everybody,

I recently acquired a L&S Powerturn 1610 from FEB of 1957 serial #43500.
Got it leveled and made first chips with it yesterday.
So far the only problem that I'm having is that it will not stay in "high" feed range.
On the far left side of the headstock there is a lever that has two positions.
One position is labeled"1" and the other one is labeled"8".
Simply put, one position controls the "slow" feeds and the other controls the "high" feeds.
When in the high or fast feed range it will feed for a little bit but then the feed bar stops spinning.
I took the covers off and noticed that when in slow feed there are two gears that mesh together quite well. Practically matching both gears full width.
When shifting into the high range the gear slides over and meshes with another gear but only about 1/8" of the two gears are able to make contact. Thus allowing the gear to easily slide off and lose motion.
This must be a common issue with this machine.
At a quick glance it looks like a shaft has slid too far out of the way or perhaps a set screw has allowed one of the gears to lose position.
Does anyone have any experience with this particular quirk?
Thanks for your time,
Joey

Mike C. · Sep 3, 2016

Not a power turn, but I had a Pacemaker at work that had two problems; would pop out if gear in one range and wouldn't reverse the leadscrew for left hand threads. Popped the cover and found both. On the popping out of gear, somebody had been in there before and put the machine back together with one fork out of time on the gearshift sector. That was found while digging to cut left hand threads... caused by somebody putting an idler on the shaft backwards. The mating gear for left hand cutting was spinning in mid air. Turned the gear around and it meshed.

I'd sure look into loose setscrews or maybe even the possibility that the gear might be on backwards.

ewlsey · Sep 3, 2016

I worked on a Polish Haco lathe where a set screw vibrated loose and let a gear slide on the splined shaft. Unfortunately in that case it allowed 2 gears to engage at the same time and it messed up a lot of things in the gear box.

I replaced the gears and made a new set screw that was flush with the outside. I cut a groove in the gear at the center line of the set screw and lined up the screwdriver slot in the set screw with the groove and wrapped the whole thing in safety wire. I've seen old gear boxes with that design (Blanchard speed boxes come to mind).

Andy221 · Sep 3, 2016

If it's like my model-X there's only one gear that slides on a shaft between two gears to go from hi to low. Hopefully there's a separate cover to allow you to take care a peek inside.

boomerang69 · Sep 10, 2016

I had a problem with my powerturns leadscrew that turned out to be a nut that had backed off .Alot of work tearing in to the gearbox to tighten a nut but glad it was all that was wrong.Hopefully it will be a simple fix.

vonblowseph · Jan 13, 2017

Howdy ya'll and TGIF!
Finally have an update on this fast feed issue.
Called up Monarch lathe who owns Lodge and Shipley now. Scott was a huge help and sent me actual drawings of the parts I was looking at instead of the exploded views in my parts book.
The actual schematics gave me a view of the gears and shafts in the positions that they were supposed to be in.
This told me that everything was in its correct position.
The real issue was the shaft that switches from fast to slow feed ranges has two indents or countersinks on its outer diameter. This allows a ball bearing with a spring behind it to hold the shaft in one of two positions. My lathe was missing the bearing and spring.
After replacing the bearing and spring the lathe was able to stay in high feed range but not all the time. It did fall out and this is a really annoying thing for a lathe to do.
The conclusion that I have come to is that I will have to use a bungee cord to hold the lever in place.
The two gears only mesh by 1/8" to 1/4" maximum and the gears are worn on their edges due to this problem being present for years I'm assuming.
I feel that this is a bad design on L&S part....or maybe they wanted this as a safety in case of some crash or something?
Either way. I don't have the time to tear this machine apart to fix it properly....Until then It will have a bungee cord and make chips.

Nella · Jan 14, 2017

Would it be possible to turn the gears 180 degrees on the shafts and have the unused teeth ends engaging or drill new holes in the shafts for the detent spring and ball for full gear engagement.

vonblowseph · Jan 14, 2017

Nella said:
Would it be possible to turn the gears 180 degrees on the shafts and have the unused teeth ends engaging or drill new holes in the shafts for the detent spring and ball for full gear engagement.

I could see where flipping the gear 180 might help a little. The amount of effort needed to get in and flip the gear doesn't work well with hours allowable on this project. If this were a restore project, might be worth the time. The ideal fix would be to replace gears and I think Monarch would sell me some....would be cost prohibitive in my situation.

Mike C. · Jan 14, 2017

It might be a fairly easy fix to buy a Boston gear of the proper diameter and tooth count and make a better gear, versus buying a stupidly expensive one from Monarch. With gear wear from slipping out of gear, it will never stop now, even if it is properly repaired.

Beware the bungee on the lever. If there is a shifter fork in there, the bungee on the lever is going to wear both the shifter fork and the part it engages to the point that it will eventually not go into gear anymore. Have seen that on a pump clutch that came into the shop a few years back. The bungee worked to keep it functioning, but when it finally wore out, EVERYTHING in the clutch system had to be replaced.

steve-l · Jan 15, 2017

I have one of these lathes and they are bulletproof. They will last 100 yrs. if you take care of them. I am almost certain that this assembly has been misassembled. Please take it apart and fix it correctly, it won't take so long. It would be a sacrilege to do otherwise.

moonlight machine · Jan 15, 2017

vonblowseph said:
Howdy ya'll and TGIF!
Finally have an update on this fast feed issue.
Called up Monarch lathe who owns Lodge and Shipley now. Scott was a huge help and sent me actual drawings of the parts I was looking at instead of the exploded views in my parts book.
The actual schematics gave me a view of the gears and shafts in the positions that they were supposed to be in.
This told me that everything was in its correct position.
The real issue was the shaft that switches from fast to slow feed ranges has two indents or countersinks on its outer diameter. This allows a ball bearing with a spring behind it to hold the shaft in one of two positions. My lathe was missing the bearing and spring.
After replacing the bearing and spring the lathe was able to stay in high feed range but not all the time. It did fall out and this is a really annoying thing for a lathe to do.
The conclusion that I have come to is that I will have to use a bungee cord to hold the lever in place.
The two gears only mesh by 1/8" to 1/4" maximum and the gears are worn on their edges due to this problem being present for years I'm assuming.
I feel that this is a bad design on L&S part....or maybe they wanted this as a safety in case of some crash or something?
Either way. I don't have the time to tear this machine apart to fix it properly....Until then It will have a bungee cord and make chips.

There is no freeking way that is right. The gears should mesh correctly. For F sakes it's just a gear box, not rocket science. Find out why the gear does not engage properly. Hold it in with a bungee cord????? You cannot possibly be that big a hack!! That is a sure fire way to burn up a shift fork. I would love to have a Powerturn, If I did it damn sure would not have a bungee cord holding it in gear.

vonblowseph · Jan 15, 2017

moonlight machine said:
There is no freeking way that is right. The gears should mesh correctly. For F sakes it's just a gear box, not rocket science. Find out why the gear does not engage properly. Hold it in with a bungee cord????? You cannot possibly be that big a hack!! That is a sure fire way to burn up a shift fork. I would love to have a Powerturn, If I did it damn sure would not have a bungee cord holding it in gear.

Ha ha! Thanks for the replies gentleman.
The things that one can assume is hilarious. My writings here have led you to this conclusion.
Whether or not I am a hack is for others to judge....but I have never been called that by anyone before now.
The bungee cord isn't damaging anything that isn't already damaged and wouldn't take much to repair.
Sorry guys, it is what has to be done right now. I'm sure that you have all been in this position.
It's just not the highest thing on my list to get done.

43monarch · Jan 15, 2017

If a bungy cord will hold it engaged,how about a stronger spring?

vonblowseph said:
Howdy ya'll and TGIF!
Finally have an update on this fast feed issue.
Called up Monarch lathe who owns Lodge and Shipley now. Scott was a huge help and sent me actual drawings of the parts I was looking at instead of the exploded views in my parts book.
The actual schematics gave me a view of the gears and shafts in the positions that they were supposed to be in.
This told me that everything was in its correct position.
The real issue was the shaft that switches from fast to slow feed ranges has two indents or countersinks on its outer diameter. This allows a ball bearing with a spring behind it to hold the shaft in one of two positions. My lathe was missing the bearing and spring.
After replacing the bearing and spring the lathe was able to stay in high feed range but not all the time. It did fall out and this is a really annoying thing for a lathe to do.
The conclusion that I have come to is that I will have to use a bungee cord to hold the lever in place.
The two gears only mesh by 1/8" to 1/4" maximum and the gears are worn on their edges due to this problem being present for years I'm assuming.
I feel that this is a bad design on L&S part....or maybe they wanted this as a safety in case of some crash or something?
Either way. I don't have the time to tear this machine apart to fix it properly....Until then It will have a bungee cord and make chips.

Nella · Jan 15, 2017

vonblowseph said:
I could see where flipping the gear 180 might help a little. The amount of effort needed to get in and flip the gear doesn't work well with hours allowable on this project. If this were a restore project, might be worth the time. The ideal fix would be to replace gears and I think Monarch would sell me some....would be cost prohibitive in my situation.

You have no time.
You have no money.
The good suggestions aren't taken as worthy.
Apparently, your are not a good mechanic.
Are we wasting our time?

vonblowseph · Jan 15, 2017

Nella said:
You have no time.
You have no money.
The good suggestions aren't taken as worthy.
Apparently, your are not a good mechanic.
Are we wasting our time?

Time is the most precious.
Money is available but the lathe came at a price and gears cost more than the lathe.
The suggestions are most certainly taken as worthy and I have expressed my appreciation of them.
There are many things that go into making a decision. A lot of those things aren't being discussed here.
Folks can pass all the judgement that they would like given the tiny amount of information being shared on this thread.
There are many lathes in the this shop. This lathe will be put on injured reserve until this problem can be further examined.
Without spending more time posting photos and schematics to further explain the minutia of this particular problem of this particular machine some people seem to think I'm an idiot. and that is okay.

Monarchist · Jan 15, 2017

Hang on....

Nella said:
You have no time.

..that doesn't already have higher priority claims on it.

You have no money.

... that doesn't already have higher priority claims on it.

The good suggestions aren't taken as worthy.

ARE seen as worthy, but see #1 and #2

Apparently, your are not a good mechanic.

Irrelevant. it is a business decision. Not just skilled hands.

Are we wasting our time?

Yours, maybe.

I'm still learning at no cost to meself.

Folk who have to "run what they have" to earn a crust rather than WISH they had resources to do better are called many things.

"Rich Retiree" who can blow crazy money on museum-grade restorals is a term seldom among those.

He ain't "wrong". Just an average guy trying to make a living.

Hmm.. he also TYPES faster than I do.. sorry for the overlap..

Von B? Solid-elastomer bungees, not the fabric wrapped s**t.

Stands up better and longer.

DAMHIKT. Even 'rich' retirees have limits.

Bill

vonblowseph · Jan 15, 2017

I bought this lathe from a guy who used to work in a shop that had many powerturn lathes.
After I got it into the shop and started running it and noticed it wouldn't stay in high feed range I called him up.
He says that he never ran the lathe in high range. When I quizzed him about this particular lathe's problem he mentioned that one of the Powerturns that they had at his old employer had a bungee cord attached to the feed lever to hold it in place.
That is where I even got the notion that this could be a common problem with this particular lathe, and certainly where I got the idea that the issue could be temporarily remedied with a bungee holding the lever in the correct position.
Thanks for replies folks!
Joey

Monarchist · Jan 15, 2017

vonblowseph said:
one of the Powerturns that they had at his old employer had a bungee cord attached to the feed lever to hold it in place.
That is where I even got the notion that this could be a common problem with this particular lathe, and certainly where I got the idea that the issue could be temporarily remedied with a bungee holding the lever in the correct position.

Aye. So long as alignment is hit and held, the goods inside the gearcase don't really give a damn what the source of the 'detent' function was, do they?

That said? I'd favor an external supplemental spring steel detent placed as-needed, (back of the lever?) so as to reduce the risk an operator not fully briefed would worsen damage to the worn gear(s).

Bill

johnoder · Jan 15, 2017

You could fool with speed change engagement quality, but I don't suppose this plan extended to feed train. X shown, 2X Power Turn likely similar

Garwood · Jan 15, 2017

A Powerturn is one of the finest lathes ever made, but it's still just a tool.

Right or wrong is not always cut and dried. I have machines that are far from perfect. I have done far worse than use a bungee cord to repair something and have also gone to great lengths to repair something properly so it doesn't fail again.

My choice of the quality level of the repair or fix was based on what is good for business, not what is good for the machine. I do not have a museum. I have a business.

If I have to cut a big hole in the side of a machine to run parts I will. If I have to buy a working machine just to cannibalize it for parts to keep another one going I will. Recently I had a critical machine go down. In looking at options to repair I was offered a really good deal on a newer, better machine for less than the cost to fix the old one. It was a really hard decision to make, but I fixed the old one because UPS red can get repair parts across the country faster than I can move a 20K lb machine 20 miles and have it making parts.

I try not to judge people's decisions to fix a machine or not. I'm more apt to criticize for investing resources into something that does not justify it.

Lodge and Shipley Powerturn falls out of high feed gear

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