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K&T 2HL, saddle oil passages and pipe cleaners

walterhw

Plastic
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
I'm in the middle of rebuilding the saddle on a K&T 2HL horizontal mil, SN 10-3676. I wanted to document what I found concerning the oil passages and ask a couple questions.

10_saddle bottom.jpg 10_saddle bottom.jpg: Shows a bottom view of the saddle with the oil through passages circled in green. There are 4 flat bottom holes 1.0in in diameter which receive 3/16in thick felt pads. The holes are connected by oil grooves.
11_saddle top.jpg 11_saddle top.jpg: Shows a top diagonal view of the saddle with the oil passages identified in the table below. Some passages contained pipe cleaners and others did not. There are 4 flat bottom holes 1.0in in diameter which receive 3/16in thick felt pads.

The following table lists the oil passages I found and what I found in the way of pipe cleaners inside these passages. The pipe cleaners were 1/8in diameter and there was 1 felt cord 1/2in diameter.

indexpipe cleaner(s)passage description
A2x1/8through hole to bottom felt pad, 1/4in diam
B2x1/8through hole to bottom felt pad, 1/4in diam
Cnoneblind hole, 11/32in diam, 7.25in deep, intersects O, M, L
D2x1/8blind hole, 11/32in diam, 10.25in deep, intersects O, N, H, J
E2x1/8blind hole, 11/32in diam, 9.625in deep, intersects G, I, K
F2x1/8blind hole, 1/4in diam
G2x1/8blind hole, 1/8in diam
H2x1/8blind hole, 1/4in diam
I2x1/8blind hole, 1/4in diam
J2x1/85/16 ID copper tube
K4x1/85/16 ID copper tube
L1x1/8 bent into "T"blind hole, 1/4in diam
Mnoneblind hole, 1/4in diam
Nnoneblind hole, 1/4in diam
Ononeblind hole, 11/32in diam, 8.25in deep, intersects C, D, F
P1/2in diam felt cordblind hole in table drive gear plug, 0.5in diam, 1.7in deep
Q1x1/8diagonal through hole, 1/8
Rnonediagonal through hole, 1/8
Snonediagonal through hole, 1/8
Tnonediagonal through hole, 1/8
Unonediagonal through hole, 1/8

Oil passages C, D, E, and O are blind drilled, counterbored 3/8in OD, and plugged with a 3/8in OD x 1/2in long interference fit plug. I removed the plugs by blind tapping 1/4-20 x 3/8in deep and then pulled them out with a slide hammer. The pipe cleaners I found in D and E were too mangled to know for sure, but I believe they were just long enough to fill the passage.
12 pipe cleaner typical.jpg 12 pipe cleaner typical.jpg: Shows a typical pipe cleaner arrangement for one of the felt pads. A piece of 1/8in pipe cleaner is bent in half and then bent to have a short leg and a long leg. The short legs are separated or splayed slightly, the long leg is inserted to the full depth of the oil passage, and the felt pad is placed in contact with the splayed short legs.
13_saddle RTDS gear pipe cleaner.jpg 13_saddle RTDS gear pipe cleaner.jpg: Shows a close up of the Rotary Table Drive Shaft Gear (RTDS gear) bearing after cleaning with the "T" shaped pipe cleaner still in the oil passage. I did not notice the pipe cleaner was there until after cleaning. The RTDS gear itself is missing on my machine.
14_saddle missing rotary table drive shaft gear.jpg 14_saddle missing rotary table drive shaft gear.jpg: Shows the RTDS gear bearing and the table screw clutch gear bearings after cleaning and painting.

Questions:
1) For anyone who has disassembled a similar saddle, how does this compare with what you found for pipe cleaner & felt placements?
2) Should the table screw clutch gear bearing oil grooves also have "T" shaped pipe cleaners? This saddle has clearly been worked on before I got it. The pipe cleaners I found were in pretty rotten shape, but some were less rotten than others. It is possible that someone previously just removed the pipe cleaners and did not replace them. The oil in the saddle is not pumped and just flows by capillary action and gravity. So, maybe there should be pipe cleaners to bring oil up from the passage below and apply it to the bearing surface. I don't see a down side to having pipe cleaners there as long as there is enough clearance so the wire doesn't rub the bearing.

Walter
 
Interesting that three years later and not a single reply. Yet, here I am doing the same thing to my 2HL and looking for help. LOL!

Did you find any useful information? I spoke with Ron Grundy (former K&T employee and friend to Kieth Rucker) and he suggested that many if not all of these are felt runs were intended to be home runs back up the brass tubes and into the oil reservoir. However, I find that being able to do that to be near impossible. I don't think I had any pipe cleaners (maybe 1?) in the saddle on my machine. I also do not have the rotary table drive shaft gear or the shaft.
 
I know not a thing about a K & T 2HL lube system.

By description in what I am reading here, can I presume oil is wicked from the reservoir ? And is it gravity fed as well, with res being higher than destination of oil ?

If so, can that be changed to use something like a 'one shot' oil system where oil is forced in with positive force ? Lines, tee's, manifolds for several branches readily available to customize anyway you like. Longevity of parts, smoothness of operation would be a whole lot better than a wicking system.
 
It's purely by wick. I am sure a one shot could be used in place, but that's also not going to be a simple task. But personally, I prefer the wick method - I can barely remember to pull the handle on my Bridgeport. lol.
 
If wanting to continue with wicking system. . .Not sure what kind of turns, or corners there are through passage. . .

But I might take, lets say a 10 or 12 gauge copper wire, fine strands inside. Slice the plastic insulation long ways a couple feet, to pull plastic off. Clip a single strand off. Feed the single strand all the way through oil passage. Choke a length of felt with the strand, and pull it through passage.

And on the end of oil's destination, ball up the felt so final outlet hole is filled. During the course of the oil passage, felt does not need to be a tight fit. But it will need to be strong enough to not be ripped apart. Probably why pipe cleaners were used. You can still choke a pipe cleaner, with a wire strand, to assist pulling it through.
 
Pipe cleaners made today don't have enough felt or cotton content to wick the oil as needed for long length passages. I'm referring to the type for cleaning the smoking variety of pipes. Now pipe cleaners sold at hobby shops and such may have enough cotton/felt needed for wicking.
I tried some of the pipe cleaners for smoking pipes and did not have much luck with them. It had too many nylon bristles.
 
Pipe cleaners made today don't have enough felt or cotton content to wick the oil as needed for long length passages. I'm referring to the type for cleaning the smoking variety of pipes. Now pipe cleaners sold at hobby shops and such may have enough cotton/felt needed for wicking.
I tried some of the pipe cleaners for smoking pipes and did not have much luck with them. It had too many nylon bristles.
I tried the ones from a craft store called Michaels and they did not work at all. I left one of the pipe cleaners in a dish of oil for several days and there was no wicking action at all. The bad part about felt is the fragility. Nothing like getting 90% through a passage to have the damn thing break on you just as it's coming out the other end. LOL!
 
I got a note with some questions from srlewis52 that prompted me to log in to PM. It's been a few years.

The pipe cleaner material I used was part number #PC-100C made by Key Surgical, 50ft long, 1/8in diameter, cotton. Google for it and you will find some suppliers. I bought mine through Amazon, but it is not currently available there. The felt material was from McMaster-Carr and I used 1/4in thick material.

I removed all the oil passage plugs that I could find. After I did that, the passages were very accessible for cleaning (the oil inside had basically turned to hard grease so I'm sure there was no oil flow). After thorough cleaning, I just pulled the pipe cleaner lengths through the oil passages using the now open access ports. It was not hard to do at all.

My belief is that the oil flow from the reservoir is essentially by capillary attraction to the cotton and might not work with nylon but I don't know this for sure. After completing the rebuild of the mill, I filled the reservoir with #2 way oil (purchased from zoro.com). The reservoir self-empties after about 3 or 4 weeks and the ways seem to stay lubricated very well.

One thing I'll note is that the large brass threaded nut for the x-axis lead screw had no provisions for receiving oil from the saddle oil system. I didn't add one, but keep the x-axis lead screw oiled manually. I suppose it's possible that an oil passage was skipped during manufacture since my machine was a war machine. But it's also possible that oil gets to the lead screw some other way that I've overlooked. I haven't encountered any problems, but I don't use the machine all that much.
 
I discovered the same on my 2HL, that the nut didn't have an obvious way to be lubricated. My only guess is that the oil comes from the dovetails of the table. My lead screw had a large flat piece of felt wrapped around it, just left of the nut. If oil from the dovetails drips down into the cavity of the saddle, then I would suspect the felt pad would soak it up and wick anything to the lead screw.
 
Another possibility for getting oil to the table screw is that oil from port N in picture 11_saddle top.jpg could pass up through holes in the bearing surface of "38 - Table screw clutch gear" and then through holes in the bearing surface of "40 - Feed reverse gear sleeve" to reach the table screw. I've added picture "15_table screw clutch gears and sleeve.jpg" to show what I mean. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture after cleaning and I didn't explore this while I had the table off, so I'm just speculating. Maybe Ron Grundy would know.
 

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  • 15_table screw clutch gears and sleeve.jpg
    15_table screw clutch gears and sleeve.jpg
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I'll have to take a look at mine. They are still apart, clean, sitting in a box waiting to go back in the saddle. Some day. I hope. ;)
 
Oil felts are in. I do wish this one was a little newer production. I understand that after the way they put in a pump that was activated by the table feed handle. Mine doesn't have that. That might have been available on the bigger machines. Not sure how long these wicks will last, but I think if they begin to fail, I am going to revisit the idea of putting on a one shot lube system.

 
Another possibility for getting oil to the table screw is that oil from port N in picture 11_saddle top.jpg could pass up through holes in the bearing surface of "38 - Table screw clutch gear" and then through holes in the bearing surface of "40 - Feed reverse gear sleeve" to reach the table screw. I've added picture "15_table screw clutch gears and sleeve.jpg" to show what I mean. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture after cleaning and I didn't explore this while I had the table off, so I'm just speculating. Maybe Ron Grundy would know.
So I took a look at these. Although there are holes on the gears, there are none in the brass sleeve they go over. But I suspect, some kind of lubrication is going to get on that any way. Might be enough.
 
Hey MyLilMule,
I do wish this one was a little newer production. I understand that after the way they put in a pump that was activated by the table feed handle. Mine doesn't have that.
Hey there, I wasn't able to find the vintage of your K&T either here on through your YouTube library. I've got a 1942 2H (#58-3705) and need to get a feel as to whether or not I should be investigating oil flow throughout the table. Everything SEEMS good, but one or two areas getting starved won't be good in the long term for sure.

Thanks!
Mike
 
Hey MyLilMule,

Hey there, I wasn't able to find the vintage of your K&T either here on through your YouTube library. I've got a 1942 2H (#58-3705) and need to get a feel as to whether or not I should be investigating oil flow throughout the table. Everything SEEMS good, but one or two areas getting starved won't be good in the long term for sure.

Thanks!
Mike
Mine is a 1942 2HL. Essentially a 1H with a larger table. Not as large as the 2H. The saddle on yours is likely a little different.

I see you have a couple of options:
1) Take the table off and take a a look at the saddle and see what might be blocked. You won't be able to see the pads on the underside, but you'll be able to see everything else. Determine how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.
2) Be diligent about manually oiling the ways until insanity creeps in and you decide the rabbit hole can't be that deep!

FWIW, I am VERY glad I went as far as I did. I was very tempted to go even further and take the knee off, but I know there is oil getting in behind it on the column ways, so I opted not to. But very happy I replaced all of those wicks.
 
Yeah, I probably SHOULD verify -- fortunately when I got this machine it needed nothing mechanically save for a good cleaning -- all rapids and feeds work, all three axes, in both directions, all feed and spindle speeds - other than a flaky motor starter, I unloaded it off of the trailer and had it running in hours.

Having said that, I did pull the front cover off of the saddle reservoir tonight and DO have the copper tubing and wicks therein; therefore I'm thinking there's little to no chance of anything but capillary action moving oil to the table areas.

I'll definitely pull the table and verify I get decent oil movement in all obvious areas. Thanks for the advice!
Mike
 
Re-awakening an old thread -- finally 'got the ass of it' as a buddy would say and I decided to break down the table and saddle. I found the top four pads on the saddle (which would lube the table ways, amongst other bits) were bone dry. I found all of my 'wicks' were wire-core pipe cleaners that only were stuffed as far down the vertical oil passages as someone could manage. I cannot see/feel any wick material in the long horizontal passages, but have yet to pull/drill out the four plugs in the back and side to get more access. All 4 plug locations are tapped 1/4-20, but there were no plug screws in place (save for two on the rear of the saddle which also hold the way wiper cover in place).

There are a few differences between my 2H and Mule's 2HL, but not enough that I couldn't go through his videos and figure out where I was going down the wrong path.

Today's project will be to get those plugs out (I like drilling and tapping them up to a 1/2-13, just for ease of access), and getting the passages as flushed out as I can.

Walter's original pictures and table will be my starting point, and I'll see how my mill compares.
 








 
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