Need help with a Cincinnati Toolmaster 1D spindle
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  1. #1
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    Default Need help with a Cincinnati Toolmaster 1D spindle

    I've had this Toolmaster 1D for a few years and have never taken out the tool holder, which is a collet set-up. I have to use straight-shank tools. I have several sizes of the collets. I would like to take this off and get more choices for tooling with a different holder. I have tried to unscrew the large nut with the four slots and it will come loose, but gets hard to turn right away and I have put quite a bit of force on it but it doesn't come further. I have tried striking the top of the pull bolt like I do with my other smaller mill but it doesn't do anything. Could someone tell me what I'm doing wrong or missing here? I've studied my manual many times and just don't see much information about this.
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]325642
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]325643
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dscn6075.jpg   dscn6079.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by jubileejerry View Post
    I've had this Toolmaster 1D for a few years and have never taken out the tool holder, which is a collet set-up. I have to use straight-shank tools. I have several sizes of the collets. I would like to take this off and get more choices for tooling with a different holder. I have tried to unscrew the large nut with the four slots and it will come loose, but gets hard to turn right away and I have put quite a bit of force on it but it doesn't come further. I have tried striking the top of the pull bolt like I do with my other smaller mill but it doesn't do anything. Could someone tell me what I'm doing wrong or missing here? I've studied my manual many times and just don't see much information about this.
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]325642
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]325643
    I also have a toolmaster 1D, but mine has a very different spindle nose. Mine is NMTB 40 with wrench flats on the spindle.

    Good luck.
    CarlBoyd

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    Cincinnati Toolmaster 1B is the only Toolmaster with a collet spindle. Unless somebody pieced something together, or there's something I don't know.

    You might have a buggered thread or some debris. Not sure there is an easy way out. Might try to keep blasting it penetrant, and working it back and forth. As a last resort, I might cut the nut off instead of destroying spindle threads. But you're there to better assess.

    Toolmaster catalog:
    Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Toolmaster Milling Machines | VintageMachinery.org

    The pdf:
    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/15220.pdf

    Toolmaster service and parts manual:

    Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Toolmaster 1B, 1C, 1D, 1E, and HV Service Manual and Parts List | VintageMachinery.org

    The pdf:
    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/15219.pdf

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    It looks like a Kwik-Switch locknut (or perhaps an Erickson Quick Change locknut) has been added to the spindle.

    Both retain the toolholder by pushing in from the large end of the spindle taper, rather than pulling via the drawbar threads.

    Google can provide additional information on both toolholding systems.

    Mike

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    Thank you for the information. That service manual is newer than the one I have and I've never had the sales brochure.

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    Thanks for the lead. I will do the research. I didn't think this was a standard set-up but I didn't know what to look for.

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    A bit of a different set up than you, But I'm wondering if you have a set screw like parts 5-6 in this pic:

    409.jpg

    Also an operators manual from 1956:

    Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Cincinnati Toolmaster operator's manual | VintageMachinery.org

    The pdf:

    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/4484.pdf

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    I've got two collet holders for my Cincy. One has flats for wrenches, the others holes for a pin wrench. Looks like you've got the pin wrench variety.

    When she came to me the collet holder was seemingly similarly permanently stuck in the NMTB40 spindle. Took a lot of Kroil or the shop made ATF/Acetone to break up hardened oils.

    Be patient with her. Get the correct pin wrench. Do not substitute a pipe wrench! Use lots of Kroil or similar. She will eventually move.

    Daryl
    MN

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Cincinnati Toolmaster 1B is the only Toolmaster with a collet spindle. Unless somebody pieced something together, or there's something I don't know.
    The 1-A Toolmaster also had the Superflex collet spindle like the 1-B. The 1-A did not have the power downfeed to the spindle, and was discontinued sometime in the late '50s or early '60s. The 1-A must have been a slow seller, especially given the price compared to a Bridgeport.

    As posted already, I'd agree that it's just likely dried up oil in the threads on the retaining nut that holds the collet adapter into the NMTB40 taper on the end of the spindle, or there's a set screw in that hole visible in the second photo. The only other possibility I can think of given the photos and your description is that somehow the threads on the end of the spindle and/or inside of the slotted retaining nut have been damaged.

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    There is a threaded hole in the side like the picture where the set screw would be and there appears to be something in the bottom of the hole but it doesn't have a slot like a screw would have. It might be a pin. I'll try to remove whatever it is. I'll also soak everything. I don't get to work on the machine much, only in my spare time and there isn't much of that, LOL. I really appreciate you guys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jubileejerry View Post
    There is a threaded hole in the side like the picture where the set screw would be and there appears to be something in the bottom of the hole but it doesn't have a slot like a screw would have. It might be a pin. I'll try to remove whatever it is. I'll also soak everything. I don't get to work on the machine much, only in my spare time and there isn't much of that, LOL. I really appreciate you guys!
    The something in hole may be a cushion of sorts. Brass or plastic. So when the set screw is run down it does not destroy spindle threads. This assumes the set screw was removed or fell out.

    If so, you may be able to wiggle it around with a pick. Sometimes that cushion gets smashed and mushroomed into the hole though.

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    Default Need help with a Cincinnati Toolmaster 1D spindle

    You likely have a Kwik Switch 300 spindle with a ZZ double taper collet holder installed. The Kwik Switch is not an adapter, it is an integral spindle.

    What you are whacking on the top is not a drawbar. It functions with the spindle lock on my machine shown here:


    You don’t unscrew the big nut all the way. It is a partial turn and the tool holder is released. The pins on the top limit the rotation.

    Dick

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    Ok, I found a piece of plastic as described in the bottom of the set screw hole. The set screw is missing. I only hit the top a couple of times, and not hard. It just didn't feel right. I do have ZZ double taper collets. I figured the two pins on top are to limit the turn since there is also a stop screw between them. This weekend maybe I will be able to try turning it again and see if it will release that collet holder. Maybe some type of pickle fork between the top and bottom nuts would help it come out. I'm trying to be gentle with it. I really don't want to break anything or damage any parts.

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    With the information you guys provided I was confident enough to turn the nut further and after a couple of tries it turned all the way to the stop. I put a screwdriver between the two nuts and pried a little and the bottom dropped out! I was very happy! Now I know what I have and it will make my search for more tooling options much easier. Thanks to all of you!

    dscn6108.jpg

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    This thread may have a few more tidbits in it for you. I have a Toolmaster with a Gorton tool holder that uses the ZZ collets.

    Toolmaster 1D vs Van Norman 22L

    Edit to add. Steve Watkins is posting videos of his work on a Cinci Toolmaster. Possibly some helpful stuff there. I know I have learned a few things.

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