Need opinions on a Brown & Sharpe no2 Universal

Hello Everyone,

I've been reading the forum for quite a while now but this will be my first post. For reference, I'm located in Southern Illinois (close to Kentucky) and I only have a small home shop. I also don't have a ton of experience under my belt. Two years of machining school, home shop experience, and currently work at a small shop.

Now to get to what I am hoping to get a little bit of help with. I currently have an old worn out Jet knee(turret) mill that I desperately want to replace with something decent. Machine selection is relatively limited in my area.

However, I have found a Brown and Sharpe No2 Universal on craigslist about three hours from me that I am interested in. From the pictures and my limited knowledge, I would guess it to be a very late 1940's to early 50's machine. The add says that it is in average condition for its age, 1/4 turn back lash on both dials, and everything works including the table feeds. It comes with 17 NMTB 50 tool holders for the horizontal spindle, 10 NMBT 40 holders for the vertical head, the original dividing head, tail stock, and driveshaft to connect to table, two overarm supports, horizontal arbors, and a couple other things.

To everyone who has experience with this machines, what is your general consensus on these machines? I assume they would be very rigid and could do heavy work. What would the value(roughly) be on a machine like this with tooling. What kind of precision (again, I know condition is important) could one expect? I know that I need to see it in person to really tell, but I just want to get an idea about the machine.

I also realize that this is a whole lot of machine for a small home shop like mine. However, I have space for it and I love the idea of having an big old piece of American Iron in the shop.

Would love to see pics. Generally, B & S made really nice stuff. Ntmb 50 for horizontal is good, and fairly easy to find arbors for which ever diameter you want, for whichever cutters. Ntmb 40 plenty of tooling available. Having a vertical head attachment a major plus. Dividing head and rest also big pluses. The driveshaft for table, if that connects to dividing head would be real nice. If dividing head is manual still good.

No pics, not seeing it first hand, sure hard to say what condition is, and what is acceptable to you, or how far you may want to go to improve it. But B & S made nice machines, heavy stable stuff, usually with nice features. I'd want to know more about which features it had, what speeds the spindles can run, including max speed, do all the gear speeds work for spindle and table. And what kind of wear can you see. Has it been in use, or sitting for a number of years. Price can vary widely, depending on condition.

Ready for heavy? Any #2 with 50 taper from them will be at least 5000 Lbs

It will not replace the quill on your Jet - no handy hole drilling

The book related will be Practical Treatise on Milling And Milling Machines by them. Mine is from 1953.

Here is an older version

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._Treatise_on_Milling_and_Milling_Machines.pdf

Over near Des Mines is a wonderful vise for it by B&S at a give away price

Machinist Eq. - tools - by owner - sale

ph

The first machine in your shop should have a quill. Nothing is more basic than drilling holes. Being able to drill and tap holes in the same set-up as your milling is important. Yes, I know you can drill holes with the vertical head, but its difficult to power tap without a quill.

Yes, its a heavy, stout mill. How much heavy work are you going to do? Thats steel parts with multiple pounds of stock removal, or aluminum with multiple tens of pounds, or tool steels.

I am not familiar with a B&S #2. Does it have rear controls? The rear controls allow you to drive it like a boring mill. Otherwise the horizontal spindle is just good for ganged cutters, which is a production set-up.

Thanks to everybody for replying. Here is a link to the craigslist add with pictures of the machines and tooling.

Brown Sharpe # 2 Universal Horizontal Vertical Milling Machine Lots Of - tools - by owner - sale

The pictures don’t show all sides of the machine but give a fair idea as to the controls etc.

To be honest, I really don’t NEED a machine of this size. I do almost no work of a size that would justify it. However, when it comes to something like this, it certainly does give me the ability to do a lot of different things. I guess I don’t really have a good justification other than I want it. And like I said earlier, there is just something about these older American made machines that I absolutely love. I’m not necessarily worried about the lack of a quill at this point. That is a sacrifice I’m willing to make.

Of course before I make a serious comitment I plan to go view the machine in person. I would never buy it sight unseen. I also don’t know the history of the machine. If it’s not in the shape I want then I’ll pass and wait for something else. The amount of accessories it had just makes it awfully hard to ignore.

I didn't see the plate that goes on the end of the table to set the gear train up on that drives the rotary. If you ever need to use that, the plate will be a necessary part to have. Great for doing spiral, etc.

greggv said:

I didn't see the plate that goes on the end of the table to set the gear train up on that drives the rotary. If you ever need to use that, the plate will be a necessary part to have. Great for doing spiral, etc.

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Maybe an enclosed gear box by then - gone missing

I assume it would be very difficult to find said plate/gear box if it is missing. What are your impressions on price. I know condition is the biggest factor, but just say that everything is reasonably good shape and works as it is supposed to.

That's a nice mill,I've seen it before on eBay I think.I have the 2 lite version,no plates for mounting gear train,just holes in table and head.Looks a little scary with the gears turning uncovered but it works.You mount this dividing head on left end of table.I have cut lots of helical gears with mine,and the all angle head is great and easy to set up for jobs and leave your Bridgeport or whatever trammed for drilling.Nice addition but maybe not a replacement for a knee mill.imop.

Thanks for the Info, I can imagine it would be a little intimidating! I know I would be giving up quite a bit of convenience with this vs a Bridgeport type machine, but I really only have room for one or the other. I’ve got a 15x30 leblond regal and an old flat belt driven monarch taking up space also.

I was thinking if I could deal with the lack of a quill for a while I could eventually make an adapter to mount a Bridgeport head on the b&s. Would be a fun project and could have the best of both worlds.

Looks to be well tooled, that is a real plus. It will also really remove metal. Downsides are lack of convienence (for quick setups), weight (to get moved), and price. Only you know how much you want to pay, but that is not a giveaway. Make sure all the feeds, speeds and clutches work. I found out that the hard way on an old K&T. PS: old iron is great!

Thanks for the price warning. I’ve seen the machine for sale for well over a year so hopefully the seller will want it gone and be willing to deal. The convenience of it being well tooled is also a big deal for me. The fact that it’s relatively local (three hours or so) is also a plus. I just don’t have the time to travel across the country for a machine. Pretty much all the other machines I’ve seen in my area are worn out Bridgeport’s, which I have no desire to mess with.

I’ll definitely be making sure that everything is In proper working order. I don’t mind a little effort to clean a machine up and make it nice, but full blown repair is not something I want to get stuck with.

Amen to the old iron. This all started with me getting spoiled running a Herbert Devliege Spiromatic we have at work. Makes it hard to go back to my Jet.

Brrown and Sharpe #2 Milling Machine

Two #2 Brown and Sharpe milling machines from 1941.. Ramsay 1

ramsay1 said:

Two #2 Brown and Sharpe milling machines from 1941.. Ramsay 1

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Thanks a bunch! Phew, does that say 5500 lbs shipped? Quite a chunk of metal.

I would go after that B&S, has a great start on hard to find pieces. It may be missing a few parts, but they all are. Over time you can find what you need. I did that with a No2 Light and with a K&T. Make sure all things work. If no power to check, then reduce the price significantly.

As for the price, that is up to you to decide. I would negotiate to a much more reasonable price.

Not having a quill... I use a horizontal for drilling and boring all the time. Easy once you get the hang of it. The nay-sayers don't realize the capability and speed.

Tapping, I use something similar to this, very fast and capable. NICE TIC WE 2 TAPPING HEADS W. CAT 4 SHANK + COLLETS | eBay

Power to all three axis, more rigid than any bridgeport, universal table and head. The physical size allows for a wide range of work. Parts that are hard to place on the vertical go directly to the horizontal.

Good luck, post pics if you get it.

There are downfalls. Its big and heavy, but that is a plus. Hard to get parts for, try finding a DRO specifically for it. You will have to get use to removing and attaching the vertical head.

jspivey said:

Thanks a bunch! Phew, does that say 5500 lbs shipped? Quite a chunk of metal.

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I once had a chance to get a #2 B&S with a Bridgeport "M" head on one of the overarms and was priced right too.. I passed on it because I already had a K&T 2hl with a vertical head.. I often think about that machine and wish it would have followed me home... LOL Ramsay 1

drom68, you basically mirror my thoughts on all the positives the machine brings to the table. It would bring a lot to the table even with the negatives. And of course, if it’s not under power I’ll be lowering my price window quite a bit. I can’t afford to get a lemon! Thanks for the direction to the tapping head.

I plan on going to look it early in December once I’m on Christmas break for school and have a little free time. I’ll be sure to post updates!

I would also confirm that it has the drive gear for the universal head prior to taking the trip. The piece towards the center rear of the pallet doesn't appear to be the drive gear, I may be wrong. Making or finding the drive gear is a pain. No drive gear then serious reduction in price or find another mill.

I’ll be sure to ask. I wouldn’t even have known to look for that. Hey thanks for the heads up. It sounds like that would probably be a deal breaker for me. Thank you.

jspivey said:

Amen to the old iron. This all started with me getting spoiled running a Herbert Devliege Spiromatic we have at work. Makes it hard to go back to my Jet.

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After a DeVlieg, its hard to go back to about any other machine. You've been spoiled badly.