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    Default New to Me Van Norman 1R-3-28

    Recently I bought a XLO Van Norman 1R-3-28 manufactured by Atlantic Machine Tool Works in February of 1975. All of this is on the tag on the column. I only found one reference to this model after extensive searching on the internet. This was in a pdf of an military document.

    This machine was bought by the person I got it from at a surplus auction twenty years ago. I noticed that the oil level was not visible in the feed box. When asked what kind of oil I should use the previous owner didn't know. I see on the lubrication plate on the ram that the spindle, feed box, and ram gearbox calls for Vactra 2. Further searching leads me to believe that today's Vactra 2 is a different formulation from the one in 1975. I would like to change all the oils before I learn to use this machine.

    What oil are you later model Van Norman owners using. I am in Alaska and have fewer options than some people but there is Chevron oil up here if anyone knows what oil of theirs would be right.

    Does anyone else have this model Van Norman?

    Thom

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    The 1R-3-28 is simply the long table (48" table, 28" travel) version of the more common 1R-3-22 (42" table, 22" travel). I've posted high quality scans of the manual in this thread:

    Van Norman 1R3, 1RQ3 manual and parts list/diagrams

    Page 9 has lubrication charts which call for 150 S.U.V @ 100*F for all three gearboxes - the feed transmission, the ram transmission and the cutterhead gears. In attempting to translate Saybolt Universal Viscosity into something more commonly used, I looked at a bunch of calculators and tables out there on the net, but perhaps this one seems to be the most straightforward and useful:

    oil-viscosity-comparison-chart.jpg

    Taken from this site: VISCOSITY- SAE, ISO or AGMA? | Doolittle Oil

    As you can see, 150 seconds Saybolt at 100* F roughly corresponds to ISO 32. Based on this I chose ISO 32AW (anti-wear) hydraulic oil when refreshing all the fluids in my 1R3. Hopefully the previous owner didn't run it dry - and hopefully it didn't get much use in those 20 years because he clearly didn't know what to put in the gearboxes

    I'm not sure why the lubrication plate says to use Vactra - it's a way oil and is designed to be used on sliding surfaces, not gearboxes. You'll want to use Vactra #2 in the one-shot oiler pump.

    Ben

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    Thanks for the reply Ben. From what I've found out it looks like Vactra 2 wasn't just a way oil in 1975. Since the SUF or SUS numbers for all three are above 300 on my machine's lubrication plate I just ordered Mobil DTE Heavy Medium 68 late this afternoon.

    I don't think this machine has had an extreme amount of use. The scraper marks are the same across the knee. The previous owner said he only used for twenty hours in the twenty years he owned it. I didn't measure the length of the table but I did measure the table travel and it was 21.75 inches.

    Here is a picture of the Lubrication plate

    vn-lube-plate.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomy View Post
    Thanks for the reply Ben. From what I've found out it looks like Vactra 2 wasn't just a way oil in 1975. Since the SUF or SUS numbers for all three are above 300 on my machine's lubrication plate I just ordered Mobil DTE Heavy Medium 68 late this afternoon.

    I don't think this machine has had an extreme amount of use. The scraper marks are the same across the knee. The previous owner said he only used for twenty hours in the twenty years he owned it. I didn't measure the length of the table but I did measure the table travel and it was 21.75 inches.
    Very interesting! I wonder why they changed the lubrication spec from (effectively) ISO 32 to 68. I also see something that looks like "...LIFETIME GREASE" for the spindle bearings, whereas my lubrication plate says to add new grease every six months.

    I can read the top section that has the diagram of the machine OK, but the bottom is a bit too fuzzy to see well. Can you take a close-up of that section and post it? Or did you happen to get a manual with the machine?

    I am also curious to know the length of your table; if it's 42", I'm not sure why it would be badged a 1R-3-28. Regardless, it's a great machine either way, and yours seems to be in great shape. I wish I could say my Y-axis ways still had scraping marks, but that axis travels flat to under .0005" over 10", so I can't complain.

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    As I have tried in vain to explain, many, many times, hydraulic fluid IS NOT the correct lubrication for any machine tool gearbox, even if the viscosity is correct. It is engineered for VERY DIFFERENT use and in particular, is intended to work with a filter. Hydraulic fluids generally operate under pressure and don't have the anti-foaming additives that a circulating oil has. Nor do they have to same level of rust and oxidation protection. Etc., etc., etc. ...

    Undoubtedly the reason that the name plate lists "Vactra" is because there used to be a "Vactra Named Series" of machine tool gear/circulating oil. Those oils are now in the "DTE Named Series" (not to be confused with the DTE hydraulic oils). Once upon a time there was "Vactra Heavy-Medium" oil. It has been replaced with (or perhaps is simply now called) "DTE Heavy-Medium" and is definitely NOT the same as "DTE 68" (which is the same viscosity HYDRAULIC fluid).

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    As I have tried in vain to explain, many, many times, hydraulic fluid IS NOT the correct lubrication for any machine tool gearbox, even if the viscosity is correct. It is engineered for VERY DIFFERENT use and in particular, is intended to work with a filter. Hydraulic fluids generally operate under pressure and don't have the anti-foaming additives that a circulating oil has. Nor do they have to same level of rust and oxidation protection. Etc., etc., etc. ...
    I don't mean to be difficult, because I certainly have no special knowledge of any lubrication subject. All I know is this is what I bought, and it has everything you mentioned:

    Advance Auto Parts ISO32AW

    "Highly refined naphthenic base oils and an additive package that provides enhanced antiwear protection and inhibits rusting and corrosion. An anti-foam agent has also been added to suppress foaming and air entrainment."

    For right or wrong, in my years of lurking reading PM, JRIowa has stood out to me as a practical authority (i.e. having extensive industrial end-user working knowledge) of machine oils. This post linked below in particular indicates he considers them nearly interchangeable - in fact, he prefers the numbered series, which is billed as hydraulic oil. Whether he's right, I don't know; but Mobil doesn't come out to my garage for testing, and my ram transmission only takes about 6qts, not 150 gallons. I imagine he arrived at this conclusion based on information from Mobil (that the both the named and numbered series were equally good for a specific application (e.g. a machine tool gearbox) - not that they're 100% equivalent), or based on his own experience working with and maintaining these machines.

    Mobil DTE Heavy Medium vs. ISO Hydraulic Oil?

    Based on everything I can find, I wouldn't have any doubts Mobil numbered oils would perform as well as Mobil named oils in a low speed, low powered gearbox like a VN. Whether my Advance Auto cheapy oil is every bit as good, I have no idea; but I figure if I keep it clean and full it will last as long as I need it to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Undoubtedly the reason that the name plate lists "Vactra" is because there used to be a "Vactra Named Series" of machine tool gear/circulating oil. Those oils are now in the "DTE Named Series" (not to be confused with the DTE hydraulic oils). Once upon a time there was "Vactra Heavy-Medium" oil. It has been replaced with (or perhaps is simply now called) "DTE Heavy-Medium" and is definitely NOT the same as "DTE 68" (which is the same viscosity HYDRAULIC fluid).
    Thanks for connecting those dots - that makes a lot of sense. I wonder why they kept the same 'Vactra' name but changed its purpose; seems to have caused confusion!

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    Thanks for your input Cal. I got this machine 3 or 4 weeks ago and in searching for the correct oil for it here and with google all over the place. I found much conflicting, to me anyway, information because I don't know who is an "authority" on lubrication here or anywhere else. Ben probably found much the same in his searching for the correct oil for his Van Norman. I had bought a pail of Chevron way oil before I bought a Vactra 2 pail before I knew it had been changed. I have enough way oil for my lifetime. I'm not a machinist and every machinist I talked to around home had a different opinion about what to use. It was as clear as mud. I kept digging and the DTE Heavy Medium just seemed to be the closest to what I need.

    img_0704.jpg

    img_0706.jpg

    img_0709.jpg

    Edit: Sorry about the upside down one

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    Here are pictures of the mill and plates you don't have to stand on your head to read:

    Attachment 212943

    Attachment 212951

    Edit: Don't know why the pictures turned 90 degrees

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    I don't mean to be difficult, because I certainly have no special knowledge of any lubrication subject. All I know is this is what I bought, and it has everything you mentioned:

    Advanced Auto Parts ISO32AW

    "Highly refined naphthenic base oils and an additive package that provides enhanced antiwear protection and inhibits rusting and corrosion. An anti-foam agent has also been added to suppress foaming and air entrainment."

    For right or wrong, in my years of lurking reading PM, JRIowa has stood out to me as a practical authority (i.e. having extensive industrial end-user working knowledge) of machine oils. This post linked below in particular indicates he considers them nearly interchangeable - in fact, he prefers the numbered series, which is billed as hydraulic oil. Whether he's right, I don't know; but Mobil doesn't come out to my garage for testing, and my ram transmission only takes about 6qts, not 150 gallons. I imagine he arrived at this conclusion based on information from Mobil (that the both the named and numbered series were equally good for a specific application (e.g. a machine tool gearbox) - not that they're 100% equivalent), or based on his own experience working with and maintaining these machines.

    Mobil DTE Heavy Medium vs. ISO Hydraulic Oil?

    Based on everything I can find, I wouldn't have any doubts Mobil numbered oils would perform as well as Mobil named oils in a low speed, low powered gearbox like a VN. Whether my Advance Auto cheapy oil is every bit as good, I have no idea; but I figure if I keep it clean and full it will last as long as I need it to.
    JRIowa's opinion and the above thread notwithstanding, Mobile DTE Heavy-Medium is not an hydraulic oil, nor is it remotely the same as DTE 26 (apart from the fact that both are "oils"). You need only go to Mobil's website and download the spec sheets for DTE Heavy-Medium and for DTE 26.

    Here are the listed applications for DTE Heavy-Medium (ISO 68):
    Applications

    The Mobil DTE Oil Named Series of lubricants are premium performance circulating lubricants designed forapplications where long lubricant service life is required. Specific applications include:


    • Land-based and marine steam turbine, hydro turbine and some gas turbine circulation systems, includingpumps, valves and other ancillary equipment
    • Continuous service in plain and roller bearings and parallel shaft gearing

    • Turbines with oil supplied by splash, bath, ring oiling or other mechanical means

    • Moderate severity hydraulic pumps

    • Compressors and vacuum pumps handling air, natural gas, and inert gases, and with dischargetemperatures not exceeding 150C


    The above mention of "hydraulic pumps" is the only place where the word "hydraulic" appears.

    And for DTE 26 (ISO 68):
    Applications


    • Hydraulic systems critical to deposit build-up or where sludge and deposits form with conventionalproducts
    • Hydraulic systems requiring a high load-carrying capability and anti-wear protection, and when thinoil-film corrosion protection is an asset

    • Where small amounts of water are unavoidable
    • Systems containing gears and bearings

    • Machines employing a wide range of components using various metallurgy


    I'll let you decide which one seems more applicable to a machine tool gearbox.

    Yes, hydraulic oils have anti-foaming additives and R&O (rust and oxidation) additives, but probably not the same ones used in a circulating oil. A major reason is that high-end hydraulic systems (servo-controlled valves, etc.) use exotic alloys which don't play will with some additives. If you look as the specs section of the two Mobil contenders, you will see that they aren't tested to the same standards. You will find that some of the specs listed for DTE 26 are from manufacturers of high-end hydraulic systems. If you're looking for a cheap alternative, you would be much better off with and 80W (SAE J306) automotive gear oil (which is about ISO 68) than an ISO 68 hydraulic oil.

    If you're happy with your choice of oil, great, but please stop telling people that hydraulic oil is the right thing to put in a transmission.

    Cal

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    Not to further distract or inflame the oil tangent, but for my 1R3 I am leaning towards Shell Rotella Universal Hydraulic Fluid, which is specifically rated for tractors with shared fluids in the geared drivetrain and hydraulics; it is rated 10W30 which overlaps with the S.U.V. 150 spec. My thinking is that it's a reputable maker and that lubricant technology overall is now way ahead of where it was decades ago, so that the overlap of capabilities of a slightly sideways application now may likely meet or even exceed a spot-on spec from years ago. I also look at the fact that the drivetrains for which this combined transmission-hydraulic fluid was designed do use gears and carry 10x+ the horsepower over gearing that is often not dramatically larger in size. And the shear strain on fluid being moved through a gearotor hydraulic pump pushing and maintaining 1000s of psi nonstop into a modern closed center hydraulic system probably makes geared-power-transmission service duty look like a vacation. Some of the other universal hy-tran fluids like the "303" rated (which seems a lower-end product) do seem to have much poorer overall specs that I would not choose, and so none of this is an across-the-board "given" without checking details. I am not saying this is "right" just that there are a variety of factors to consider.

    Regarding differences between the specified viscosities, I see that the original poster's machine has a plate with "XLO" and I recall reading somewhere that an outfit with a name like that bought out and sold off the last inventory of VN when VN exited the precision machine business to focus solely on automotive repair machinery. So maybe the later spec plate is from someone other than the folks most closely involved in the roots of the machine.

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    That is the most definitive post about 1R-3 oil I've seen on the internet yet after many hours of looking. Maybe I'm not very good at searching. I do think that it will help future VN owners figure it out. There are lots of milling machines out there but not very many VN 1R-3 mills around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    If you're looking for a cheap alternative, you would be much better off with and 80W (SAE J306) automotive gear oil (which is about ISO 68) than an ISO 68 hydraulic oil.

    If you're happy with your choice of oil, great, but please stop telling people that hydraulic oil is the right thing to put in a transmission.

    Cal
    Again with the caveat that my limited knowledge is built mostly on what I've read from other people's experiences and recommendations, I have to say I've never seen gear oil recommended (the opposite actually, one example here: Can I use gear oil in the headstock? ), but I've seen plenty of recommendations for hydraulic oil. From this, I infer that many folks have had years or decades running machines on hydraulic oil with no ill effects. I don't disagree circulating oil is the most proper thing to put in a gearbox, but can anyone honestly say they expect the Van Norman gears to wear out and fail under hobbyist use because the machine was running DTE 26 instead of DTE Heavy Medium? IMO the keys are to run an oil that's non-detergent, anti-wear, R&O inhibited, anti-foaming and about the right viscosity. You have to admit, I'm miles ahead of the folks recommending chainsaw bar "way" oil and SAE 10-30w motor oil in the headstock

    To somewhat consolidate the oil related matters - I am genuinely curious to run a test. I've not noticed my Advance Auto "special" (read: cheep) oil foaming up at all, but tonight I'll run the Van Norman at full tilt 2000RPM and take pictures of the cutterhead and ram sight glasses before and after running ten minutes wide open. If the oil remains clear, great; if it gets milky or foamy, then I'll owe Cal a beer and buy a pail of DTE Light

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    It's interesting that you, Ben, and I all became new owners of the scarce 1R3 in different regions in such a short span of time. I think if the capabilities of these machines, for their modest scale, were better known, or if they had a badge with that well-known name that starts with "B," there would be fiercely aggressive bidding wars when they popped up on the market. Guess I am glad that they are obscure, and that I was in the right place at the right time, because I feel like I got a real 'find' in nice shape at a really decent price- and they seem to be such a quirk of history that most of them ended up in non-severe service. I didn't even know the 1R3's existed until it popped up for sale by accident when I was scanning around for something like a VN12 or 16.

    When I look at the very low annual production quantities, it is hard to see how these even stayed in production over the fairly long duration that they did, unless maybe large batches of the major components were all made, and set aside, early in the production life, and then fitted together and sold when orders came in.

    Occasionally I think it would be cooler to have the 1RQ with the quill, but then again, I kind of like having the 40 spindle of the R3 rather than the 30 spindle of the RQ. If fate smiled on me with an available, affordable, nearby RQ (a very highly unlikely possibility) I wouldn't mind having both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kd1yt View Post
    Regarding differences between the specified viscosities, I see that the original poster's machine has a plate with "XLO" and I recall reading somewhere that an outfit with a name like that bought out and sold off the last inventory of VN when VN exited the precision machine business to focus solely on automotive repair machinery. So maybe the later spec plate is from someone other than the folks most closely involved in the roots of the machine.
    Did you hear anything about Atlantic Machine Tool Works also in what you read?

    My machine was sold to the defense department. The lower plate has the contract number and the Federal Stock Number for the mill on it. There are a number of things that are different from the 1R-3-22 mills. I wish it had a shut-off switch in the front. Right now it is on the rear of the left side.

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    I agree that a quill would be nice. I too just happened to look at craigslist and typed in mill and this Van Norman showed up at what I thought was a reasonable price for Alaska. It was so much cleaner that the filthy Bridgeport that has popped up repeatedly for several years for about 7 grand.

    It seemed short but very stout and as I researched VNs I came to the conclusion that they are desirable pieces of equipment. By the time I called the owner he had dropped the price and I didn't quibble. I got a George Gorton 10" rotary table, 1 3/4 Van Norman dividing heads (one I can't lift), hold down set, several tool holders, vise, cabinet full of end mills, and several other misc useful items with it. I won't use it until it has the oil changed. Now I want a lathe.

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    My machine also has US gov't tags on it, one in the open and the other part covered by a Pennsylvania vo-tech school tag; part of me wants to peel the vo-tech tag off to check out the US details underneath but part of me wants to leave the vo-tech-chapter evidence in place; I find it interesting to consider what specific past lives- and the human lives that interacted with them- go with a given machine. Somewhere I read that the main market for the 1R3s had been for the Navy but I cannot find my way back to that. I suppose that might fit with the moderately long duration but slow-volume production.

    My machine's tag references Van Norman being part of a larger corporation then-known as Universal American

    I have sort of traced this out as a loose history of VN as relates to our late-chapter machines
    Apparently way back the predecessor company was Waltham Watch Tool company and one of their products was small lathes
    Van Norman Machine Tool Co. - History | VintageMachinery.org
    VN seems to have come into existence as a distinct company in the very early 1900s.
    At some point, some sources seem to indicate that VN got bought up and became part of Universal American Corporation, with one source listing that as happening in 1964 https://www.davistownmuseum.org/bioMorseTwist.html
    That also seems confirmed, with less specificity on the date, here:
    Universal American Corporation [WorldCat Identities]
    and with other potential information about U.A. perhaps available here, if one could get the periodical without an on-site visit (which may be possible, I don't know and haven't yet checked):
    New York Public Library Web Server 1 /All Locations
    And then it looks like not too many years later, Universal American got swallowed up into Gulf & Western (a/k/a, per Mel Brooks' 1970s 'Silent Movie,' Engulf & Devour)
    GULF and amp - WESTERN TO TRY NEW FIELD - Will Buy Block of Universal American Merger Ahead COMPANIES PLAN MERGER ACTIONS - Article - NYTimes.com
    All signs are that during the 1960s and '70s, G&W bought up all sorts of companies in all sorts of industries in which it had no depth of background, and probably did nothing at all in the way of R&D or a vision for the future of a company as specialized as VN; they sound like prototypical corporate raiders of the "greed is good" ilk.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_a...ern_Industries
    Signs are that Ex-cell-o, of which Atlantic was apparently a subsidiary or a marketing sub-name, bought the tattered remnants of the VN machine tool business, maybe just the remaining inventory, in the mid-1970s; see the info at the post by JacobS of 11-03-2009, 11:25 AM, here (part way through the entire discussion)
    Atlantic (van norman ) 1RQ mill on ebay
    Unfortunately, this seems to have been the group trajectory of more than a few precision US manufacturers during the 1960s and 70s; https://www.amazon.com/When-Machine-.../dp/0875842089 (I've read some fascinating online excerpts, though not the whole book)

    Here in Vermont, where I live, there was a huge, thriving, and distinguished precision machine tool industry of many companies in Springfield and Windsor (so much so that it was considered the 7th most at risk enemy target during WWII http://www.springfieldvt.com/history-c10d8 ). In fact that area was (among some still is) known as 'Precision Valley' and was quite literally the cradle of modern and precision manufacture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Precision_Museum . But due to some of the same sorts of shortsighted corporate engulfments followed by demise and collapse, it is a hollow shell of what it was; the average citizen of today doesn't even know that it was once there.

    I have strong views on that sort of thing; it takes the most remarkable dynamism of ingenuity and work ethic and livelihoods and communities and strip mines it into total ruin, under the helm of people who offer the abilities, roots of, and loyalty to none of those things; it's almost like slow motion treason, only maybe propelled by selfish cluelessness instead of deliberate intent to sabotage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kd1yt View Post
    Not to further distract or inflame the oil tangent, but for my 1R3 I am leaning towards Shell Rotella Universal Hydraulic Fluid, which is specifically rated for tractors with shared fluids in the geared drivetrain and hydraulics; it is rated 10W30 which overlaps with the S.U.V. 150 spec. My thinking is that it's a reputable maker and that lubricant technology overall is now way ahead of where it was decades ago, so that the overlap of capabilities of a slightly sideways application now may likely meet or even exceed a spot-on spec from years ago. I also look at the fact that the drivetrains for which this combined transmission-hydraulic fluid was designed do use gears and carry 10x+ the horsepower over gearing that is often not dramatically larger in size. And the shear strain on fluid being moved through a gearotor hydraulic pump pushing and maintaining 1000s of psi nonstop into a modern closed center hydraulic system probably makes geared-power-transmission service duty look like a vacation. Some of the other universal hy-tran fluids like the "303" rated (which seems a lower-end product) do seem to have much poorer overall specs that I would not choose, and so none of this is an across-the-board "given" without checking details. I am not saying this is "right" just that there are a variety of factors to consider.
    ...
    It's certainly not my intention to participate in any kind of flame war, merely to inform.

    What you're missing here is that motor oils and hydraulic oils are designed to work with a filter. Hydraulic systems and the lubrication systems of engines involve small passages and having particles floating around can plug things up, so they use additives that keep particles in suspension until the filter can remove them. In the case of motor oils, a class of additives called "detergents" are added to cause combustion byproducts to clump up so that they too, can be removed by the filter. Motor oils also contain additives to hold water in suspension so that heat from the engine can drive it off. For a machine tool gearbox, you want particles to settle to the bottom of the gearbox where they can wait harmlessly to be flushed away and you want water to float to the top so that it can evaporate.

    All the things you listed that an hydraulic oil needs are not necessarily compatible with additives that might provide the best anti-rust protection (for example) so something else is used instead. Just like the situation where the amount of an additive called ZDP (aka ZDDP) was dramatically reduced in motor oils because it caused problems with catalytic converters. The result was increased wear on older engines with flat-tappet valve lifters. ZDP was a good additive for older engines, but not so much for newer engines. Similarly, the best additive for the job may not be usable in an hydraulic oil. Another example is the additive "peritack", once used in Vactra way oil (link) great for older machines, not so much for CNC.

    The fact that people are using hydraulic oil in gearboxes (and incidentally also using engine oil) and getting away with is irrelevant to the question "what is the right oil?". You could probably use baby oil and get away with it in most hobby setting. But, by all means, put what every oil you want in your baby.

    Cal

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    "I'm not sure why the lubrication plate says to use Vactra "

    That's exactly what my 1940s Mobil-Sacony machinery lubrication book calls for in the VN12 gearbox, but nobody believes it. If Van Norman put that on the tag, I'd certainly assume they knew what they were talking about. That said, yes, the formula of Vactra has supposedly changed as of ten or fifteen years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebencarter View Post
    To somewhat consolidate the oil related matters - I am genuinely curious to run a test. I've not noticed my Advance Auto "special" (read: cheep) oil foaming up at all, but tonight I'll run the Van Norman at full tilt 2000RPM and take pictures of the cutterhead and ram sight glasses before and after running ten minutes wide open.
    Attached are the results - I'd say that in terms of air entrainment/foaming, the oil performed admirably.

    Before running:
    1118171444.jpg1118171446c.jpg

    After running for 5 minutes at ~400RPM to warm up a bit:
    1118171456a.jpg1118171456.jpg

    (Photos continued next post)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1118171511a.jpg  

  23. #20
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    After running 10 minutes at 1530RPM:
    1118171511a.jpg1118171512.jpg

    You might say, "Huh? Ben promised to run it wide open at 2000RPM." Well, as described here, my belts are slipping and need replacement: Van Norman 1R3 bogs down then shuts down at higher RPM gears?

    I had enough modern link belting laying around to make two link belts which is what I'm currently running with, but they wouldn't get up to speed, either - they literally started shredding themselves when getting up to speed in the highest gear, so I ran it in speed D-4.

    You might also say, "Huh? 1530RPM isn't a selection on the gearbox." And you'd be right - my best guess is my replacement link belts seem too large to fit fully into the pulley grooves and that must be affecting the speed ratios, as the motor has been measured to be turning at ~3550RPM or so. Here's a picture of measuring the spindle speed with my cheap tach:
    1118171502.jpg


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