Dope
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2016
Hello friends,
I've received really excellent help on a number of issues here, so here I am again. Much appreciated to everyone who tolerates my posts. I have no experience with this kind of machine, to be clear.
I picked up a new-to-me 1941 Cincinnati no. 2 horizontal. It's a medium-speed dial-type machine. Machine is in really excellent shape, it came from a tech school and has almost no wear. I measured .006" backlash on the Y axis! Almost perfect table - really stoked with this find.
Howeverrrrrrr I have discovered a problem. I got the machine rewired for 240V, wired up, clean and lubricated and started her up. Everything seems okay except for two issues:
1) No power feeds in any direction. However, the table traverses with the hand controls AND with the rapids. Furthermore, sometimes when engaging the power feed, the corresponding handle will turn very briefly (maybe an eighth of a turn). Towards the end of my troubleshooting, I realized that the horizontal splined shaft on the right side of the knee isn't even turning. I'm guessing that's how power transfers to the knee and subsequently all of the power feeds.
2) The spindle turns approximately 25-28 RPM at all times, regardless of the gear I put it in (I tried them all). Gear changes and feed changes work great but the spindle always spins the same speed. I'm really confused by this one. It does have a 27 RPM gear speed so I assume it's somehow stuck on that gear but I have no idea how the whole gear change assembly is working great but it's not actually changing gear.
Given the condition of the machine, I'm really surprised that it would have major issues like this. Furthermore, the machine was in operation and had a vise mounted, cutter mounted, and fresh chips all over it. It seems like it had just been in use. So I'm wondering if maybe a key fell out somewhere during transport, or something simple like that.
Furthermore, I started wondering if the clutch was maybe completely out of adjustment, and that's why the power feeds would engage for a moment (presumably the clutch slips after that). I was thinking this may even have explained the very slow spindle speed, the clutch is not engaging and is just sorta dragging, causing the spindle to turn slowly. I went through the clutch adjustment procedure in the manual but I either couldn't figure it out, or something is wrong. Now, keep in mind that I feel like I might be misinterpreting these instructions but here goes:
Here's the clutch adjustment in the middle of the main pulley, at the back of the machine:
This is where it started getting really confusing for me. The manual specifies that when the clutch lever is moved, that thin collar on the outside of the nut (kinda looks like a castle nut), should articulate .020". It does not move at all. However, the clutch clearly works to some degree, the spindle stops when the clutch is disengaged. Strange. Furthermore, when attempting to adjust the clutch, the instructions state to turn that castle nut clockwise until it touches the nut at the end of the threads. At least, that's what I think it's saying. But the problem is, it is nearly impossible to turn that castle nut in either direction, after I removed the cotter pin. The only way I can move it is by hammering on the splines with a drift (as you can see). If I try to turn it with a big improvised pin wrench, the entire assembly rotates and the spindle turns. I can't find any way to lock this entire assembly from rotating, thus all the hammering. There were quite a few hammer marks on these splines before I got there by the way, so clearly someone else has a very similar go at this.
Here's the page from a 1938 manual for this machine:
The diagram is pretty confusing but I swear I have it right, especially since there was a cotter pin through the castle nut and into the thin collar around it (not shown in the pics). Furthermore, the previous hammer marks on that castle nut tell me that this has been messed with before (perhaps improperly). So, a prime suspect in my mind. Finally, as a last piece of evidence, after messing with the castle nut a bit, the power feed no longer partially turns any of the handles at all. So I feel like a slight adjustment of the clutch seems to have changed the nature of the problem slightly - making me think I'm looking at the right part of the machine.
Having said all of that, I realize I may be going down the totally wrong path with this clutch adjustment thing, so I'm trying to keep an open mind.
Long story short, does anyone have any thoughts or ideas? Am I going down the right road here or should I be looking at other things? I tried to include as much detail as possible because the whole thing is surprising given the condition of the machine - I'd be shocked if it actually had major issues to resolve, especially knowing that it was in-use. I doubt anyone was hand-cranking the table to do jobs at 27RPM, it would have taken ages to do anything.
Thanks in advance!
I've received really excellent help on a number of issues here, so here I am again. Much appreciated to everyone who tolerates my posts. I have no experience with this kind of machine, to be clear.
I picked up a new-to-me 1941 Cincinnati no. 2 horizontal. It's a medium-speed dial-type machine. Machine is in really excellent shape, it came from a tech school and has almost no wear. I measured .006" backlash on the Y axis! Almost perfect table - really stoked with this find.
Howeverrrrrrr I have discovered a problem. I got the machine rewired for 240V, wired up, clean and lubricated and started her up. Everything seems okay except for two issues:
1) No power feeds in any direction. However, the table traverses with the hand controls AND with the rapids. Furthermore, sometimes when engaging the power feed, the corresponding handle will turn very briefly (maybe an eighth of a turn). Towards the end of my troubleshooting, I realized that the horizontal splined shaft on the right side of the knee isn't even turning. I'm guessing that's how power transfers to the knee and subsequently all of the power feeds.
2) The spindle turns approximately 25-28 RPM at all times, regardless of the gear I put it in (I tried them all). Gear changes and feed changes work great but the spindle always spins the same speed. I'm really confused by this one. It does have a 27 RPM gear speed so I assume it's somehow stuck on that gear but I have no idea how the whole gear change assembly is working great but it's not actually changing gear.
Given the condition of the machine, I'm really surprised that it would have major issues like this. Furthermore, the machine was in operation and had a vise mounted, cutter mounted, and fresh chips all over it. It seems like it had just been in use. So I'm wondering if maybe a key fell out somewhere during transport, or something simple like that.
Furthermore, I started wondering if the clutch was maybe completely out of adjustment, and that's why the power feeds would engage for a moment (presumably the clutch slips after that). I was thinking this may even have explained the very slow spindle speed, the clutch is not engaging and is just sorta dragging, causing the spindle to turn slowly. I went through the clutch adjustment procedure in the manual but I either couldn't figure it out, or something is wrong. Now, keep in mind that I feel like I might be misinterpreting these instructions but here goes:
Here's the clutch adjustment in the middle of the main pulley, at the back of the machine:
This is where it started getting really confusing for me. The manual specifies that when the clutch lever is moved, that thin collar on the outside of the nut (kinda looks like a castle nut), should articulate .020". It does not move at all. However, the clutch clearly works to some degree, the spindle stops when the clutch is disengaged. Strange. Furthermore, when attempting to adjust the clutch, the instructions state to turn that castle nut clockwise until it touches the nut at the end of the threads. At least, that's what I think it's saying. But the problem is, it is nearly impossible to turn that castle nut in either direction, after I removed the cotter pin. The only way I can move it is by hammering on the splines with a drift (as you can see). If I try to turn it with a big improvised pin wrench, the entire assembly rotates and the spindle turns. I can't find any way to lock this entire assembly from rotating, thus all the hammering. There were quite a few hammer marks on these splines before I got there by the way, so clearly someone else has a very similar go at this.
Here's the page from a 1938 manual for this machine:
The diagram is pretty confusing but I swear I have it right, especially since there was a cotter pin through the castle nut and into the thin collar around it (not shown in the pics). Furthermore, the previous hammer marks on that castle nut tell me that this has been messed with before (perhaps improperly). So, a prime suspect in my mind. Finally, as a last piece of evidence, after messing with the castle nut a bit, the power feed no longer partially turns any of the handles at all. So I feel like a slight adjustment of the clutch seems to have changed the nature of the problem slightly - making me think I'm looking at the right part of the machine.
Having said all of that, I realize I may be going down the totally wrong path with this clutch adjustment thing, so I'm trying to keep an open mind.
Long story short, does anyone have any thoughts or ideas? Am I going down the right road here or should I be looking at other things? I tried to include as much detail as possible because the whole thing is surprising given the condition of the machine - I'd be shocked if it actually had major issues to resolve, especially knowing that it was in-use. I doubt anyone was hand-cranking the table to do jobs at 27RPM, it would have taken ages to do anything.
Thanks in advance!