No power feed or gear changes on 1941 Cincinnati no2 horizontal
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    Default No power feed or gear changes on 1941 Cincinnati no2 horizontal

    Hello friends,

    I've received really excellent help on a number of issues here, so here I am again. Much appreciated to everyone who tolerates my posts. I have no experience with this kind of machine, to be clear.

    I picked up a new-to-me 1941 Cincinnati no. 2 horizontal. It's a medium-speed dial-type machine. Machine is in really excellent shape, it came from a tech school and has almost no wear. I measured .006" backlash on the Y axis! Almost perfect table - really stoked with this find.

    Howeverrrrrrr I have discovered a problem. I got the machine rewired for 240V, wired up, clean and lubricated and started her up. Everything seems okay except for two issues:

    1) No power feeds in any direction. However, the table traverses with the hand controls AND with the rapids. Furthermore, sometimes when engaging the power feed, the corresponding handle will turn very briefly (maybe an eighth of a turn). Towards the end of my troubleshooting, I realized that the horizontal splined shaft on the right side of the knee isn't even turning. I'm guessing that's how power transfers to the knee and subsequently all of the power feeds.

    2) The spindle turns approximately 25-28 RPM at all times, regardless of the gear I put it in (I tried them all). Gear changes and feed changes work great but the spindle always spins the same speed. I'm really confused by this one. It does have a 27 RPM gear speed so I assume it's somehow stuck on that gear but I have no idea how the whole gear change assembly is working great but it's not actually changing gear.

    Given the condition of the machine, I'm really surprised that it would have major issues like this. Furthermore, the machine was in operation and had a vise mounted, cutter mounted, and fresh chips all over it. It seems like it had just been in use. So I'm wondering if maybe a key fell out somewhere during transport, or something simple like that.

    Furthermore, I started wondering if the clutch was maybe completely out of adjustment, and that's why the power feeds would engage for a moment (presumably the clutch slips after that). I was thinking this may even have explained the very slow spindle speed, the clutch is not engaging and is just sorta dragging, causing the spindle to turn slowly. I went through the clutch adjustment procedure in the manual but I either couldn't figure it out, or something is wrong. Now, keep in mind that I feel like I might be misinterpreting these instructions but here goes:

    Here's the clutch adjustment in the middle of the main pulley, at the back of the machine:





    This is where it started getting really confusing for me. The manual specifies that when the clutch lever is moved, that thin collar on the outside of the nut (kinda looks like a castle nut), should articulate .020". It does not move at all. However, the clutch clearly works to some degree, the spindle stops when the clutch is disengaged. Strange. Furthermore, when attempting to adjust the clutch, the instructions state to turn that castle nut clockwise until it touches the nut at the end of the threads. At least, that's what I think it's saying. But the problem is, it is nearly impossible to turn that castle nut in either direction, after I removed the cotter pin. The only way I can move it is by hammering on the splines with a drift (as you can see). If I try to turn it with a big improvised pin wrench, the entire assembly rotates and the spindle turns. I can't find any way to lock this entire assembly from rotating, thus all the hammering. There were quite a few hammer marks on these splines before I got there by the way, so clearly someone else has a very similar go at this.

    Here's the page from a 1938 manual for this machine:



    The diagram is pretty confusing but I swear I have it right, especially since there was a cotter pin through the castle nut and into the thin collar around it (not shown in the pics). Furthermore, the previous hammer marks on that castle nut tell me that this has been messed with before (perhaps improperly). So, a prime suspect in my mind. Finally, as a last piece of evidence, after messing with the castle nut a bit, the power feed no longer partially turns any of the handles at all. So I feel like a slight adjustment of the clutch seems to have changed the nature of the problem slightly - making me think I'm looking at the right part of the machine.


    Having said all of that, I realize I may be going down the totally wrong path with this clutch adjustment thing, so I'm trying to keep an open mind.

    Long story short, does anyone have any thoughts or ideas? Am I going down the right road here or should I be looking at other things? I tried to include as much detail as possible because the whole thing is surprising given the condition of the machine - I'd be shocked if it actually had major issues to resolve, especially knowing that it was in-use. I doubt anyone was hand-cranking the table to do jobs at 27RPM, it would have taken ages to do anything.

    Thanks in advance!

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    Real nice on getting the machine. I'd really like to get a full, regular #2 horizontal Cincinnati. I have been watching around for quite a while on the right deal.

    My first thought is you changed voltage. . . but I'm sure you'd know if motor was turning the correct rotation, speed etc. , and what other motors are there ?

    My next thought is oil pressure. Without correct oil pressure things may not be working, might even have safeties to lock out features until you have oil psi. Minor info on it here page 26-27:
    Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - #1-4 Dial Type Milling Machines - Service and Parts Manual | VintageMachinery.org

    The pdf:
    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/15146.pdf

    Also this last little bit from bottom of page 27:

    115.jpg

    I'm also wondering, if this machine the electric motor can have forward/reverse. If electric motor is strictly one direction, maybe its turning reverse rotation after voltage change and oil pump sucking, not pressurizing.

    Machine pics too please !

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Real nice on getting the machine. I'd really like to get a full, regular #2 horizontal Cincinnati. I have been watching around for quite a while on the right deal.

    My first thought is you changed voltage. . . but I'm sure you'd know if motor was turning the correct rotation, speed etc. , and what other motors are there ?

    My next thought is oil pressure. Without correct oil pressure things may not be working, might even have safeties to lock out features until you have oil psi. Minor info on it here page 26-27:
    Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - #1-4 Dial Type Milling Machines - Service and Parts Manual | VintageMachinery.org

    The pdf:
    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/15146.pdf

    I'm also wondering, if this machine the electric motor can have forward/reverse. If electric motor is strictly one direction, maybe its turning reverse rotation and oil pump sucking, not pressurizing.

    Machine pics too please !
    You know what, I never even realized the machine had any hydraulics at all. I will look into that immediately. It seems like it would make sense, as the machine is apparently hydraulically shifted. So that would at least explain why the machine only seems to have one gear. I'll check it out tomorrow, thanks!

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    I immediately thought Hydraulics. I remember several machines with hydraulic issues. One problem is that when they sit for a longtime, the valves get rusty, the pump gets clogged up in the column and knee. It's been years since I worked on them, but I remember taking off the BIG HEAVY back door, because if you don't it will sometimes swing closed and smash your body parts. My brother once almost got a broken arm. Then after the door is off we pulled that pully and clutch assembly to access the pump that lays inside there. I recall the brass screen filter in there being clogged with slimy oil and crud.

    Another time we had to pull the side shifter panel to access a steel pipe that had rusted and it had a hole in it. We replaced it with a HD Nylon hose that worked. The steel one had some severe bends in it and we didn't have a steel tube bender. If that's the issue I would find a hydraulic company and bend a steel tube as I recall we had to pull the cover a year later and put in another heavier nylon tube. I remember the valve in the saddle right that shifts the feed and rapid being rusted and would not slide to the end of it's travel. Having to pull a frost plug, removing the shifter handle that moves it and de rusting the valve body and then pulling the valve out of the hole, using a slide hammer screwed into the valve.

    I would also drain the knee and column, if the oil is red and has clumps, that's rust and you could try just replacing it, but I would spend the time pulling it apart, even though it's big job. Get a hydraulic gage and set the pressure. One of the best thing going for you is the Cincinnati manuals were written so great and give you a step by step removal instructions. It's been 45 years ago...and I still remember them...lol they were so much harder then a K&T.

    PS: After writing I opened the manual...and on the bottom of page 27....read it...lol...says what I wrote. Have fun. Once you get it tuned up you will love it.
    Last edited by Richard King; 07-10-2021 at 01:23 PM.

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    I used to have a #4. Really study workbench. Without having seen one in many years, I'm more than sure your problem is hydraulic.

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    M-786-5 would seem to be less likely to have full coverage on the older medium speed dial type. I have M-786-2 dated 1938

    Here are the adjust oil pressure pages from M-786-2

    adjust-oil-pressure-.jpgadjust-oil-pressure-b.jpg
    Last edited by johnoder; 07-10-2021 at 12:11 PM.

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    If you pull the shifter side. I remember having to take off the 2 round plates on the bare side first and to remove a taperd pin that is held in with a nut, loosen the nut and tap the pin backwards. There is an eyebolt hole on top. If I remember right put the dials on the lowest number before draining the oil and you can cycle it. Look for O-Rings and replace them. scrape off the black permatex..

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    Quick update, I went out to check out the machine really quickly. Motor turns counter-clockwise which I was pretty sure was wrong, although the data plate does not specify a rotation. The spindle turns the correct direction, which is probably why I never noticed. I cleaned up the pulleys and under 80 years of grime there is actually a little badge with the rotation direction - it's supposed to be clockwise after all. Great catch by texasgunsmith!

    I switched two of the motor leads and sure enough, it rotates the correct direction now. Turns out, my electrician had wired it wrong.

    I instantly gained X and Z power feeds but no Y power feed still.

    The gears seem to also be shifting correctly, I can hear a little hiss when switching now. The spindle is still very slow, only 10-40RPM but it does change with the gear speeds. I believe the issue here is that the clutch is out of adjustment, I can see that it's not spinning with the lever engaged, but if I wiggle the lever it starts to gradually turn. Definitely needs to be tightened up, which I suspect will solve the speed issue.

    I'm going out there right now to check the hydraulic pressure and adjust it as needed, before I do anything else, of course.

    One last note, the manual specifies "red engine oil" or anything medium with 190-210 Saybolt @ 100F. I've found a conversion that says that is approximately SAE 20, I've got some DTE 25 and 26 laying around (SAE 15 and 20 respectively), I'm thinking they should suffice?

    More to come...

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    Great news, I'm glad you're making progress.

    On my large mill I have separate motors for knee/saddle and such. I was curious if you had any separate hidden motors as well, that might have a rotation or voltage change issue. But I don't think so. Looking at "Electric Specifications" in a 1941 brochure, it appears one electric motor, page 35:

    Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Cincinnati Dial Type Milling Machines | VintageMachinery.org

    The pdf, again page 35:

    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/5076.pdf

    116.jpg

    Anyway, while I was checking specs, I noticed something. Clutch specs. I assume No 2 plain, but its the same for universals. Clutch spec is listed as "multi disk, oil". I don't know without looking at all the pieces and mechanism, but oil psi may still be an issue. Many 'wet' clutches work off oil psi. Anyway, food for thought. Same publication, page 27:

    117.jpg

    I think the DTE oils you mentioned are fine, which I believe are DTE hydraulic. I'd also be inclined to use DTE heavy/medium circulating machine oil. Not a huge difference in the DTE be it hydrauic or machine oil, they are both mineral oil, I just lean toward circulating machine oil. As a new machine to you, you'll no doubt pay attention to noise and temps in the beginning. I'd expect temp and noise at top speeds to be a little greater, and might hedge my oil based on that.

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    Okay, tonight's update.

    Looked a little further into the Y-axis power feed issue. Nothing really seems wrong, the table traverses on the Y with both the front and rear hand controls. Also power traverses with the rapids, just no normal power feed. Interesting enough, when engaging the Y-axis power feed, the rear control handwheel spins but the front control handwheel does not. I assume I must have a busted pin or missing key somewhere in between the two. Not a critical problem at the moment, as this machine will only be used for milling in the X axis.

    As far as the hydraulics go, I pulled the plug under the speed/feed dials and drilled/tapped it 1/4" NPT as the manual describes. Pressure is about 275psi, slightly lower than the 290-310psi specified in the manual. Doesn't seem awful but I will adjust it up into the correct range tomorrow.

    Furthermore, I also discovered that the machine is nearly empty of hydraulic oil. I put every bit of DTE 26 that I had laying around (1.5 gallons or so) into the machine and it all disappeared, with no apparent leaks. I'll get some more oil tomorrow to top it off. The knee reservoir was also completely empty. Any idea what the capacity of the hydraulic oil in the column must be? I'll probably pick up another 5 gallon pail of it just to be safe. Strange that it was so low, I'm wondering if it somehow leaked out during transport. When I arrived home from a ~200 mile drive, the entire machine was covered in a film of oil, and the fill cap for the column's hydraulic reservoir was missing. I'm wondering if the air sort of wicked it all out over the course of a few hours. The entire trailer had a film of oil on it in fact. I thought it may have been oily coolant, as the coolant tank in the base was full when I picked it up, and it was missing the cover right under the knee, but now I'm wondering...

    Once I've got the oil filled up and the hydraulic pressure set, if the spindle still doesn't turn at the right speed then I'll go back to the clutch adjustments. No point until I get the hydraulics sorted out though. Speaking of, is anyone familiar with that clutch adjustment procedure mentioned in my original post? Am I really just turning that castle nut clockwise until it bottoms out, and then backing it off two notches? I feel like when I was messing with it earlier, I turned it at least 3 full revolutions and it still has more to go. That seemed really odd, as I'd be shocked if the clutch worked at all if it was that far out of adjustment. Also curious if it should be that hard to turn the castle nut. Maybe I'll fabricate something to lock the spindle so I can turn the nut easier. I can't get any of my pin wrenches on the nut due to the low clearance, I'd probably have to make some sort of custom socket that fits it instead of just banging on it with a drift over and over.

    Final question, what are you guys using to make sight glasses out of? Part of the problem of not realizing the hydraulic issue is that all of the sight glasses are so stained at the correct level, it looked like there was fluid in there even though there wasn't. I tried taking some out and polishing them but it really didn't help much.

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    Don't know for certain, but would guess Y power feed issue is oil psi related. Until oil levels are squared away I wouldn't be sure. But if you're reading 275 psi I would expect things to work, hard to say, but I'd feel better when levels are full, then that will answer that question, be it yes or no.

    I suppose oil could blow out. Not sure where you picked up from, but some places don't like to ship machines, engines and such with oil. Legally I think it needs hazmat labels or whatever. So maybe it was drained before shipping. Not everyone follows that though.

    Checking a different manual from 1953, the lube chart shows capacity that the 1938 manual did not. 3.25 gallons for the column, 1.25 for the knee. The saddle and other places take oil and lube too, which the 1938 manual shows on page 4 & 5.

    The 1953 manual pages 145 and 146 if looking at pdf pages, but its pages 136 and 137 from actual manual:
    Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Nos. 2, 3 & 4 Milling Machines - Parts and Service Manual | VintageMachinery.org

    The pdf:
    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/22565.pdf

    118.jpg

    The procedure for adjusting clutch is the same, but worded a little different and might provide a clearer picture. The outer sleeve nut gets tightened to spring adjusting nut, then backed off. As the outer sleeve nut is actually under the spring nut, and you tighten clockwise. . . it must be left handed threads if it is backing up to spring adjusting nut.

    119.jpg

    For sight glasses, I saw this site linked in these forums before, I'll need some myself soon. I think Mcmaster Carr and grainger have some offerings too.

    Oil Sight Glasses | JW Winco Standard Parts

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    After re-reading I edited my last post on the clutch adjustment. I read it wrong and gave wrong advice. After thinking about it, I went back and re-read. Not sure if you saw the wrong info first, But I edited the wrong stuff out.

    Blowing up the pic helped, :

    120.jpg

    If I'm reading the instructions, and what you wrote I think you were doing it correct.

    In looking at your pic, I think the outside nut, which has only 2 slots for a locking pin, is actually the spring adjusting nut. That nut should be locked and not adjusted.

    The nut inside of that, looking more like a castle nut, several slots, is actually outer sleeve nut.

    If turning outer sleeve nut clockwise to touch down on spring adjusting nut, then two notches loose, it must be left hand threads to back up in that direction.

    Something I can't tell in your pic. There is a wire snap ring on spring adjusting nut, or between the two nuts. I can't tell. Is it just holding the one locking pin in ? Is interfering with adjustment ?

    Looks like some crud build up on the nuts too, I wonder if dirt between them might be screwing you up. Maybe work the castle nut back and forth, blow air and penetrant between them.

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    what are you guys using to make sight glasses out of?
    Made these for the 36" Ohio shaper in 2004 from the tough plastic Home Depot sells for window glass (Lexan?)

    They still look perfect (the extra screws, o-rings and 410 stainless rings are my idea of proper improvements)

    dcp_0652.jpgdcp_0654.jpgdcp_0658.jpg

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    This is a manual mill, not a CNC. You have table, saddle, and knee movements. If you want to use CNC designation, keep in mind on a horizontal mill knee is Y and saddle is Z. It often takes a vertical guy a while to get his head around the change when you swap to a horizontal.

    I recall there is a coupling on the right side (when facing spindle) of the knee that can break. I don't recall which feeds are affected when broken.

    I've got a couple of flow gauge covers made from the clear heavy plastic used in clamshell packaging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    After re-reading I edited my last post on the clutch adjustment. I read it wrong and gave wrong advice. After thinking about it, I went back and re-read. Not sure if you saw the wrong info first, But I edited the wrong stuff out.

    Blowing up the pic helped, :

    120.jpg

    If I'm reading the instructions, and what you wrote I think you were doing it correct.

    In looking at your pic, I think the outside nut, which has only 2 slots for a locking pin, is actually the spring adjusting nut. That nut should be locked and not adjusted.

    The nut inside of that, looking more like a castle nut, several slots, is actually outer sleeve nut.

    If turning outer sleeve nut clockwise to touch down on spring adjusting nut, then two notches loose, it must be left hand threads to back up in that direction.

    Something I can't tell in your pic. There is a wire snap ring on spring adjusting nut, or between the two nuts. I can't tell. Is it just holding the one locking pin in ? Is interfering with adjustment ?

    Looks like some crud build up on the nuts too, I wonder if dirt between them might be screwing you up. Maybe work the castle nut back and forth, blow air and penetrant between them.
    I agree with your assessment, it's really hard to tell from the illustration but zooming in does make it a bit clearer. It seems like the castle nut/outer sleeve (B) nut is actually riding on the central (A) nut underneath it, which is subsequently riding on the threaded shaft in the middle. There is a cross pin through that central (A) nut as you can see, and that snap ring is simply holding the cross pin in place.

    Believe it or not, that castle (B) nut is actually RH threads, because it's been moving towards the interior of the pulley as I turn it clockwise. So it's actually going to bottom out on an internal shoulder of the central (A) nut, I assume. Then I'll back it off two notches. It seems simple but MAN is it hard to turn. If you look closely at the pics, you can see that I marked a silver line through the central (A) nut all the way to the outer spring sleeve (C) to ensure that only the castle nut (B) is moving, which is indeed the case. I just have to hammer it with a drift to get it to move. If I try to turn the castle nut (C) with a wrench, the whole assembly rotates and the spindle moves. If I try to lock the spindle and then turn castle nut (B) with a wrench, the pins on the pin wrench/face spanner wrench bend because it's too difficult, hence the hammering method. It's almost like I'd have to machine some sort of custom socket with protruding pins to match up with that castle nut (I'm not sure what you'd call that sort of socket, sorry) in order to actually turn it effectively. Maybe I'll grab an old socket and use a rotary table or a dividing head to carve it up. Then I could possibly hit it with an impact wrench to get it to actually move easier. I agree that there is a lot of gunk in there but I can't reach the other side of the castle nut to see what the deal is, it could be heavily rusted for all I know. Backing off that castle nut is just as hard as advancing it btw, oddly enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    This is a manual mill, not a CNC. You have table, saddle, and knee movements. If you want to use CNC designation, keep in mind on a horizontal mill knee is Y and saddle is Z. It often takes a vertical guy a while to get his head around the change when you swap to a horizontal.

    I recall there is a coupling on the right side (when facing spindle) of the knee that can break. I don't recall which feeds are affected when broken.

    I've got a couple of flow gauge covers made from the clear heavy plastic used in clamshell packaging.
    Heh, I don't know anything about CNC but I understand what you're saying. I guess this is my first horizontal mill so I didn't think about the change of spindle orientation. When I say Y axis controls, I meant the saddle moving in and out, just to be clear.

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    As a general rule for me, if I'm doing any kind of adjustment. If I find I'm turning the adjuster way more than expected. I stop. I stop and double check everything real good, because greater than 50% I'm doing something wrong.

    An example would be adjusting valves on an engine. Engine ran, no noise. I'm adjusting and find something I'm turning way too much . On a four stroke engine I might be on the wrong stroke. . .

    You're there and better able to assess. But if the spec is .020", and think of the tpi threads on nut. . .If 20 tpi, one revolution of nut is .050". Even if wore, I can't imagine the clutches would contact each other if it was multiple turns out. I think someone would have to address it or something. It just seems like something is wrong.

    I wonder if instructions are wrong in the clockwise portion. Maybe its clockwise when backing up two notches, but no one caught the error. The way I read it, castle nut needs to touch spring nut. If threads are right hand, then it would be counter clockwise to do so.

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    It is worded wrong !

    It should say counter clockwise.

    Look at the entirety of mechanism:

    123.jpg

    By turning clockwise you are smashing down on spring. That gives sleeve extra travel on shaft !

    You want less travel of sleeve on shaft. By turning counter clockwise you back castle nut to spring nut. Then two notches forward to give you .020".

    Pretty funny that got repeated wrong in multiple manuals, and no one corrected it. But you see that on occasion. Monarch has some specs repeated wrong over a good number years through a few manuals too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    As a general rule for me, if I'm doing any kind of adjustment. If I find I'm turning the adjuster way more than expected. I stop. I stop and double check everything real good, because greater than 50% I'm doing something wrong.

    An example would be adjusting valves on an engine. Engine ran, no noise. I'm adjusting and find something I'm turning way too much . On a four stroke engine I might be on the wrong stroke. . .

    You're there and better able to assess. But if the spec is .020", and think of the tpi threads on nut. . .If 20 tpi, one revolution of nut is .050". Even if wore, I can't imagine the clutches would contact each other if it was multiple turns out. I think someone would have to address it or something. It just seems like something is wrong.

    I wonder if instructions are wrong in the clockwise portion. Maybe its clockwise when backing up two notches, but no one caught the error. The way I read it, castle nut needs to touch spring nut. If threads are right hand, then it would be counter clockwise to do so.
    No, I totally get you on this. That's mostly why I tabled the clutch adjustment until I get the hydraulics sorted out. The whole thing "feels" wrong, but it was really hard to argue against multiple factory manuals. Furthermore, the instructions are actually cast into the door for the motor compartment. It says basically the same thing, with a slightly different language. It says to turn the adjustment nut clockwise until "home" (their word, not mine), then back off two notches and put the cotter pin in. Really hard to argue with it unless somehow they mean clockwise when viewing the spindle head-on, instead of the view from the back of the machine.

    I'm about to head out now, I picked up some generic ISO 68 hydraulic fluid so I can troubleshoot the machine while I wait for my DTE 26 to arrive. I'll get the hydraulics sorted and if the clutch is still wonky, I'll make a socket to fit the castle nut and play with it. Maybe I'll back it all the way out (counter-clockwise) and observe the clutch operation, and then start tightening it and see how it changes things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dope View Post

    Really hard to argue with it unless somehow they mean clockwise when viewing the spindle head-on, instead of the view from the back of the machine.
    That same thought crossed my mind ! . Machinists with front of machine mentality. From front of machine it would be clockwise.

    Need a guy with really long arms to reach around and work blind though.

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