O/T V8 EMD Engine
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    Default O/T V8 EMD Engine

    A few days ago in the General section, a topic of big generators came up. Kind of drifted later in as things do, to some talk of large bore engines.
    BIG generator questions

    By coincidence, I was on a motor vessel, a push type tug yesterday. It has a pair of the engines discussed. Thought I'd a bit about it.

    EMD, Electro Motive Division, primarily old 2 stoke diesel engines. Mostly used in trains, tug boats, power generation. Though an old engine, and old design, they are still very widely used. Most common model is the 645, all mechanical. Newer 710 models use electronic controls, but still a 2 stroke.

    All are vee engines, no inlines that I know. Sizes I typically see are v8, 12, 16, and 20 cylinders. Engine/crankshaft rotation can be standard or reverse rotation. But that rotation is fixed, can't swap back and forth during operation.

    They can have blowers, or turbos, or both.

    The engine we are looking at is port main engine, pme, on this push style tug:

    1.jpg

    The main data tag. Model# is what concerns us. L8 of model number means L for left hand rotation, 8 cylinders. 645 is the core model design. The E portion, I forget ha !

    2.jpg

    Emissions sticker:

    3.jpg

    HP and rated top speed. This is a lower hp EMD, one blower, no turbo. But it will carry that HP with authority.

    4.jpg

    Gauge panel while engine is idling, 360 rpm. So total range is 360-900 rpm.

    5.jpg

    Edit: This post may appear a bit off topic for this section of forums, and is labeled O/T. Have a little patience and I'll explain why I think this is relevant for this section, as it winds down to the conclusion.
    Last edited by texasgunsmith; 09-24-2020 at 08:31 PM.

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    Front, right side view. For scale, that's a 5 1/2' ladder. The oil pan rail is about level with the deck, so the entire oil pan is out of view, and below the deck.

    6.jpg

    Back view. Note the single blower mounted on rear.

    7.jpg

    Front of engine:

    8.jpg

    Note the square box on lower front. Its an oil strainer. kind of like an oil pump suction screen. Its refered to as "ice cream box", due to its shape.

    9.jpg

    The actual oil filter is remote off the engine. Its mounted in the corner of the engine room. That cylinder looking thing in corner. Stands 3 to 3.5' tall, about 2' wide.

    10.jpg
    Last edited by texasgunsmith; 09-24-2020 at 03:31 PM.

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    Front side view:

    11.jpg

    Another view from front, but in it we see the starboard main engine as well. The propellers on boat, or wheels as they are called, need to turn opposite direction from each other. On this boat, it is done by the other engine turning reverse rotation, or Right hand rotation. The starboard main is a reverse engine. Edit: While the port main is standard rotation.

    12.jpg

    Engine speed is controlled by the green part. Its a Woodward governor.

    13.jpg

    Looking from the rear side. The blank off plate is where a 2nd blower could be added for larger or higher hp engines.

    14.jpg
    Last edited by texasgunsmith; 09-26-2020 at 01:02 AM.

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    Releasing clasps along the side allows for easy access to the valve train. Valve cover is on a hinge.

    15.jpg

    Dual overhead cams, one along the rear of each bank of the vee, the shiny silver shaft being the cam on this side. Rocker arms directly roll on cam shaft lobes. 3 rocker arms. The center is the injector rocker. The two to either side are exhaust valve rockers.

    That's right, all exhaust valves. No intake valves. Being a 2 stoke, the cylinder liner has holes just above the piston's lowest point on down stroke. When piston reaches bottom air is forced into the cylinder from the blower.

    Also note, you are seeing the top of a single cylinder head. The circle shape. Each cylinder has its own head. The head is bolted directly to cylinder liner. Removal of the 4 head crabs, the large nuts you see, allows an entire cylinder to be removed. That's head, liner, and piston pulled out in one shot. A 2nd way of doing that also pulls the connecting rod with the total cylinder pack. The complete assembly is known as a "power pack".

    16.jpg

    Another view looking between two heads.

    17.jpg

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    Looking down the side of cylinder block, we see two sets of circle covers. I know them as doors. The upper row of door allows inspection of the air box, which is the chamber where air from the blower is forced. By removing the doors, you can bar the engine over and inspect each cylinder through holes in the cylinder liner.

    The lower set of doors allows access to connecting rods and main bearings. No need to remove an oil pan.

    18.jpg

    Certain engine failures can lead to crankcase explosions. These can, and have been catastrophic, blowing the doors off, causing fires and even killing people.

    To prevent that there are two specialty doors, known as "explosion doors". They are basically pressure relief valves. You can see them in the next two pics.

    20.jpg 21.jpg

    In the first pic you may have noticed 4 valves sticking out of the block, above the doors. They are blow down valves. Prior to starting engine, open the valves. Bump engine with starter. If any fluids have gotten on top of cylinder, they shoot out those valves. When the operator is sure the cylinders are clear, close the valves, start the engine.

    19.jpg

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    Really interesting stuff, but why did you post this in this section instead of general or antiques?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Really interesting stuff, but why did you post this in this section instead of general or antiques?
    Really good question. I'd also like to thank the user who reported the post. It gets reported to me.

    First is a minor reason, this being the "Heavy Iron" section, the guys, machines, etc here draw a certain mentality. I'm not a regular EMD guy, I get involved with them about once a year or two. But the guys I know personally who are, refer to them as "Big Iron".

    Most of the reason has to do with content. I'm not a paid writer for the forums. I need to work a job, work on machines in my shop, home life etc. But I was considering positive ways we could increase content. Particularly the kind of content, that manual machine type people are interested in.

    The kind of content to get us thinking around corners and such.

    CNC may dominate in manufacturing, but from what I see, big machines and manual machines are still heavily used around shipyards, refineries, chemical plants and such. But many of those guys may wear more than one hat. They'll run a big lathe, but handle maintenance and repairs also. Or be involved in installations, applications of those parts.

    I hadn't yet finished the content of this thread, when you asked the question. So it may take me a few posts to get out what I mean. I have 1 or 2 posts of pics left, then I'll get to it a little more specific.

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    While you're in there ... I guess you can't for this engine, but I'm somewhat fascinated by the way they bolt two blocks and cranks together to make a 16v out of two 8's .... not that I think a 12v53 would be cool or anything, but ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    While you're in there ... I guess you can't for this engine, but I'm somewhat fascinated by the way they bolt two blocks and cranks together to make a 16v out of two 8's .... not that I think a 12v53 would be cool or anything, but ...
    It is a little interesting. I think its more of a Detroit Diesel thing than EMD, atleast for the cylinder blocks, not sure about the cranks. Though both had early origins in GM

    Not sure if you saw it, but JHOLLAND1 started a Detroit history thread yesterday. Wish he put that in Antique , but its here:
    History of Detroit Diesel

    I took some pics today at my work for that thread, I'll try to post this weekend. One is a 16v71, which is two 8v blocks bolted together. We have an alignment tool for putting the blocks together. I didn't take a pic today, but I'll get one and post it there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Front side view:

    Another view from front, but in it we see the starboard main engine as well. The propellers on boat, or wheels as they are called, need to turn opposite direction from each other. On this boat, it is done by the other engine turning reverse rotation, or Right hand rotation. The starboard main is a reverse engine.
    I dont understand what you are trying to say here. I thought that two counter rotating engines engines would each drive a prop or "wheel" that are mirror images of each other, so even though the two engines are spinning the props in opposite directions they are both pushing the same direction. The way I read your description both props must be the same pitch and depending on which one is pushing the other is just creating drag?

    Thanks for posting this BTW

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    First is a minor reason, this being the "Heavy Iron" section, the guys, machines, etc here draw a certain mentality. I'm not a regular EMD guy, I get involved with them about once a year or two. But the guys I know personally who are, refer to them as "Big Iron".
    Big Iron:
    Marty Robbins - Big Iron (Audio) - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    I dont understand what you are trying to say here. I thought that two counter rotating engines engines would each drive a prop or "wheel" that are mirror images of each other, so even though the two engines are spinning the props in opposite directions they are both pushing the same direction. The way I read your description both props must be the same pitch and depending on which one is pushing the other is just creating drag?

    Thanks for posting this BTW
    You are correct, maybe the way I worded it was confusing.

    Mirror image is perfect explanation. You raise your right hand. But the mirror image is lifting his left.

    On a two screw boat, that's two props, the angled pitch of each blade is same. But there is a right and left wheel. Because one wheel the blades are bent in one direction, the other wheel's blades are bent the opposite way.

    They spin in opposite directions, but push the vessel in the same direction.

    Im not a boat engineer, but one reason has to due with cavitation in the water. Greater efficiency on the push the boat receives. It also helps the boat drive in a straight line better.

    Due to harmonics and vibrations, is why they use opposite rotating engines, on better engineered boats.

    Not an absolute, as some vessels use the same rotation engines, but get the opposing rotation at the wheels through the marine gear(transmission). Which is basically putting one engine's gear in reverse, while the other is in forward, but the wheelhouse controls will both say forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    While you're in there ... I guess you can't for this engine, but I'm somewhat fascinated by the way they bolt two blocks and cranks together to make a 16v out of two 8's .... not that I think a 12v53 would be cool or anything, but ...
    The EMD engines blocks and crankshafts are one single piece each.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood1968 View Post
    The EMD engines blocks and crankshafts are one single piece each.
    They are weldments, right ? That makes sense ... brain failure here, sorry for the interruption.

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    The EMD 2-stroke diesel was king of the rails since the late 30’s.

    General Electric became the number one locomotive builder in the 80’s, with their Alco-design 4-stroke diesel prime mover.

    Stringent EPA regulations have outlawed any new locomotives from having 2-stroke power.

    So EMD (part of Progress Rail, which is owned by Caterpillar) has developed a 4-stroke diesel for new locomotives.

    Currently still in the testing phase, EMD’s 4-stroke has a long way to go to equal the output and reliability of GE’s proven design.

    GE and EMD both have been struggling the last few years, as most railroads are foregoing new locomotive purchases in favor of rebuilding.

    ToolCat

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    I’m vocational school as a diesel mech we had a 471 Detroit Diesel 2 stroke 4 cylinder engine that lived life as a water pump for a fire suppression system in a tall building.

    It had a .95 turbo cold side and a badge on the motor that said 1050HP

    It also had a huge hole in the side where something flew out!

    It blew up years ago after it was removed from service and put on the stand, I’m guessing it didn’t like being rev’d like a weed wacker with no load attached.

    Sad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrewblob View Post

    4-71. . .badge on the motor that said 1050HP
    That badge must be off another engine. A natural 4-71 was rated something like 75kw, in the area of 100hp. Even tricked out with a turbo and extras I can't see it gaining 10x's that. But it did have a hole in the side you said, so maybe they tried to get that out of it.

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    Going a bit more off topic, in our already off topic thread. . . quick peak at the gens.

    The electricity on the motor vessel of this EMD boat is powered by two John Deere 6068's, with Marathon Gen ends. Rated 99kw.

    They don't run in parallel on this boat, each will take a 12 or 24 hour shift, then swap to the other side.

    27.jpg 28.jpg 29.jpg

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    Getting back to the EMD's.

    Exhaust manifolds are mounted in the center of the vee, on top of the engine. On most boats, they are covered with a fiber glass high heat resistant wrap. Just like insulation, its quite itchy if on your skin, and bad to breathe if disturbed.

    6.jpg 22.jpg

    Pulling the wrap back to take a peak. Exhaust ports for each bank, are close, right next to the other bank's ports.

    23.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    That badge must be off another engine. A natural 4-71 was rated something like 75kw, in the area of 100hp. Even tricked out with a turbo and extras I can't see it gaining 10x's that. But it did have a hole in the side you said, so maybe they tried to get that out of it.
    It was either a 471 or 671 inline.

    The tag was FOR SURE real, it was a data plate and had the information for the engine and it was a Detroit Diesel tag.

    It was so long ago I can’t remember everything but it was a FOR SURE DD 4/6 cylinder inline. It was supercharged and turbo charged and the turbo was AMAZINGLY big. I think it said .90/.95 on the cold side.

    Like I said it pumped a SHIT ton of water straight up a tall building.

    We had pic of what it looked like installed. The water pump was as big as the motor seemed like.

    It was removed from service because the building was being torn down and it was donated to the school. It was not modified outside of its original instillation.

    I was amazed it had such a high HP output too!

    And unfortunately after years of service and then years more of free revs without cooling it finally gave up the ghost, I never seen it purr unfortunately as it was already KIA when I arrived


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