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  1. #21
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    Sitting behind the Main Engine is a marine gear. Marine gears are a transmission for a boat. Big and heavy, but pretty simple. The selector has 3 positions, Forward, Neutral, and Reverse.

    The gear ratio for forward and reverse is always the same.

    24.jpg

    This particular marine gear is made by Falk. Tag is hard to read, but I can see this one was made in 1979.

    26.jpg

    The output shaft of the marine gear will connect directly to the wheel shaft. Most wheel shafts are a one piece shaft that penetrate the hull of boat, and the wheel will mount to it on a taper.

    Depending on vessel size, hp, etc, the wheel shafts on tug boats I see usually have a diameter of 4" to 10", and are in the area of 15' to 30' long.

    The wheel shaft here is hidden by the gray guard behind the marine gear.

    35.jpg

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    The EMD 2-stroke diesel was king of the rails since the late 30’s.

    General Electric became the number one locomotive builder in the 80’s, with their Alco-design 4-stroke diesel prime mover.

    Stringent EPA regulations have outlawed any new locomotives from having 2-stroke power.

    So EMD (part of Progress Rail, which is owned by Caterpillar) has developed a 4-stroke diesel for new locomotives.

    Currently still in the testing phase, EMD’s 4-stroke has a long way to go to equal the output and reliability of GE’s proven design.

    GE and EMD both have been struggling the last few years, as most railroads are foregoing new locomotive purchases in favor of rebuilding.

    ToolCat
    The diesel prime mover in General Electric locomotives was originally a Cooper-Bessemer design. Prime movers used in ALCO (and ALCO-GE before their marketing partnership ended) were originally McIntosh-Seymour designs (M-S became an ALCO subsidiary in 1929).

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  4. #23
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    Why counter rotating? In addition to thrust, the rotation of the propeller creates a lateral force and a torque on the boat. By using counter rotating propellers, these forces are balanced and the control and efficiency of the boat are improved. This carries right down into recreational boats.

    As an aside, I had a single screw inboard boat, and the proper way to dock was to head into the dock at about a 30 degree angle at a pretty good clip, and at the last minute, nail it in reverse. The lateral force would pull the stern over as the forward momentum was canceled, and the boat would end up moving sideways into the dock. It only works from one direction though. 30 years later and I still can't dock the I/O as easily as that boat.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Really interesting stuff, but why did you post this in this section instead of general or antiques?
    Pretty well wrapped up with the main portion of the thread. So to get more to your question.

    Many have wished for some more and better content. Just like anything, opinions on that vary from guy to guy. But if you look at the grand scope of the forums, there's not a specific section that discusses manual machining. Looking at the list, with the grand total of all the machines this particular section could hold, I think those topics would be as relevant here as anywhere.

    If you are into manual machining, you're mostly likely not doing production work. You're doing one off's, specialty repairs, and custom creations.

    Your mindset is different from production guys. You need to be a thinker and a problem solver. You are probably pretty handy at reading a dial indicator and using hand tools.

    Guys like that are extremely valuable, but the days of being just a lathe hand are mostly over. You will have other responsibilities. Many of those responsibilities you will get to apply the fundamentals of what you know.

    As a manual machinist, have you ever:
    1. Installed a machine, leveled and set it up ?
    2. Run accuracy tests. Test bars, two collar tests, checked run out, etc, etc ?
    3. Used dial indicators, and other hand tool measuring devices ?
    4. Ever had to use your own brain to figure stuff out ? No prints, specs, or anyone with better knowledge around ?

    So when I think of all of the above, I think how to we broaden that. In this case, this off topic thread, looking at the front of the EMD engine, cast your eyes down to the bottom of it. Note the mounting. Two bolts double nutted, with a jacking bolt in the center. Also note the red/orange color:

    30.jpg 31.jpg

    Rear of engine. 4 bolts double nutted, with a jacking bolt in the center:

    32.jpg 33.jpg

    Now note the marine gear mounting. Again the orange/ reddish color. 4 bolts double nutted, 2 jacking bolts:

    34.jpg

    The alignments of marine gear to wheel shaft are very precise. And engine to marine gear also. There are different ways of doing things. But in this case they are using Chockfast. It is an epoxy that when poured, is a bit thicker that paint. But when dries is rock solid. Chockfast is used as foundations for engines, and a variety of equipment and machines as a foundation in alignments, leveling etc. Colors I often see are orange and red. Some info here:
    Chockfast Products | High-performance epoxy grouting

    I'll expand more in a bit. . .

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Pretty well wrapped up with the main portion of the thread. So to get more to your question.

    Many have wished for some more and better content. Just like anything, opinions on that vary from guy to guy. But if you look at the grand scope of the forums, there's not a specific section that discusses manual machining. Looking at the list, with the grand total of all the machines this particular section could hold, I think those topics would be as relevant here as anywhere.

    If you are into manual machining, you're mostly likely not doing production work. You're doing one off's, specialty repairs, and custom creations.

    Your mindset is different from production guys. You need to be a thinker and a problem solver. You are probably pretty handy at reading a dial indicator and using hand tools.

    Guys like that are extremely valuable, but the days of being just a lathe hand are mostly over. You will have other responsibilities. Many of those responsibilities you will get to apply the fundamentals of what you know.

    As a manual machinist, have you ever:
    1. Installed a machine, leveled and set it up ?
    2. Run accuracy tests. Test bars, two collar tests, checked run out, etc, etc ?
    3. Used dial indicators, and other hand tool measuring devices ?
    4. Ever had to use your own brain to figure stuff out ? No prints, specs, or anyone with better knowledge around ?

    So when I think of all of the above, I think how to we broaden that. In this case, this off topic thread, looking at the front of the EMD engine, cast your eyes down to the bottom of it. Note the mounting. Two bolts double nutted, with a jacking bolt in the center. Also note the red/orange color:

    30.jpg 31.jpg

    Rear of engine. 4 bolts double nutted, with a jacking bolt in the center:

    32.jpg 33.jpg

    Now note the marine gear mounting. Again the orange/ reddish color. 4 bolts double nutted, 2 jacking bolts:

    34.jpg

    The alignments of marine gear to wheel shaft are very precise. And engine to marine gear also. There are different ways of doing things. But in this case they are using Chockfast. It is an epoxy that when poured, is a bit thicker that paint. But when dries is rock solid. Chockfast is used as foundations for engines, and a variety of equipment and machines as a foundation in alignments, leveling etc. Colors I often see are orange and red. Some info here:
    Chockfast Products | High-performance epoxy grouting

    I'll expand more in a bit. . .
    It should still be moved to the antique section sir.

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    Great info. You put much time into the pictures and descriptions.

    This isn't the section for it though.

    I ran an FFG engine room and kept four 16V149's going for 3 years of my life. I like seeing this stuff and learning things I didn't know, but this should really be in the Antiques section where people will see it and appreciate it.

    Also 4-71 or 6-71 did not make 1050 HP. Maybe a couple hundred HP. No reason for that much power for a water pump. My BIL has an 80's pumper truck with 3406B. Full engine power to the 4 or 5 stage pump it has. The pump is literally 3 tons of iron and bronze right behind the Allison trans. rated for something like 650 PSI if you align all the stages in series. That is designed to shoot water to the top of a tall building and it has like 350 HP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Great info. You put much time into the pictures and descriptions.

    This isn't the section for it though.

    I ran an FFG engine room and kept four 16V149's going for 3 years of my life. I like seeing this stuff and learning things I didn't know, but this should really be in the Antiques section where people will see it and appreciate it.

    Also 4-71 or 6-71 did not make 1050 HP. Maybe a couple hundred HP. No reason for that much power for a water pump. My BIL has an 80's pumper truck with 3406B. Full engine power to the 4 or 5 stage pump it has. The pump is literally 3 tons of iron and bronze right behind the Allison trans. rated for something like 650 PSI if you align all the stages in series. That is designed to shoot water to the top of a tall building and it has like 350 HP.
    I know what I saw.

    It was a 4 or 6 cylinder inline Detroit Diesel “water pump” for the emergency fire suppression system on a “high rise” building.

    Can’t tell you how tall the building was but the engine was complete (with damage) blown and turbocharged and had a tag riveted to the top of the engine (valve cover maybe can’t be sure)

    1050hp
    Xxxx torque
    Detroit diesel 6-71 (I thought 4-71 but it was probably a 671)

    it had the biggest turbo of any vehicle we had.

    We had 5 road trucks a duce n a half. Diesel ambulance. And a ton of engines and axles and such to learn on.

    The turbo drew me to it and the HP on the tag made me gasp.
    I even asked the teach if it was real and he said sure enough.

    I also watched some kids trying to start a yenmar 3 cylinder after bleeding the fuel system and used A FUCK TON of starting fluid.

    Literally blew a chunk of the head gasket out of the side and lifted the head a bit. Was a fun place to just dick around as young men

    Edit: to be honest I think the tq rating on the tag was 1800 or more but I really don’t remember that part to clearly. And mind you that engine Catastrophically failed and windowed the block.

    Rumor was it blew at school on the stand but the teach didn’t say that so who knows

    The system was a dry suppression system (air in the lines not water unless the pressure dropped and triggered the water) and the engine was setup with a battery backup and could start and pump even without power from the grid. I can’t tell you anymore then that because that’s what the teach told me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrewblob View Post
    I know what I saw.
    1050hp
    Xxxx torque
    Detroit diesel 6-71 (I thought 4-71 but it was probably a 671)
    Then someone screwed with the tag for fun, because an 8V92 in fire truck service makes around 500 hp and a little under 1400 ft-lbs torque max

    A 1000 hp 4-71 would be burning nitro. No wonder it blew up.

    105 hp is more likely.

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Great info. You put much time into the pictures and descriptions.

    This isn't the section for it though.
    I appreciate it. Also I'm not finished in the content, as to why I think it may fit, maybe it will sway guys like you and digger more or not.

    I can't disagree the Antique section would be a good fit. A lot of cool kids there, and its pretty pleasant as things go . I like hanging out there myself. No doubt this thread would have at least twice the views there.

    One difference here though, is not to just show a story or history, but application in things that we do. Will it work ? Will it fit ? Don't really know.

    Rome wasn't built in a day, or so I'm told . I expect the next few months will see some trial and error. There's not a lot of traffic here getting steam rolled out of the way, so maybe a little effort and decent discussions will snowball into something we want to contribute to.

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    I went to an auction at the QR workshops as while ago ....there were EMD 20 cyl blocks stacked in a wall there......lots of new parts in the lots too,one interesting feature I noted was piston pins coated with bearing metal..(crosshead type).....I was there to buy a D6D ,had a cooked tranny (claimed) and still sold for $80ks...too much for my bargain hunting nature..........dinnt buy any EMD stuff either.

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    Still gathering info for this thread. But in my travels this week, got on another EMD boat. These are V12's with two blowers.

    62.jpg

    Some of the info I'm looking to gather is the wheel shafts, as they are cut on truly large lathes. Anyway on this other boat, the chief engineer is real joker. Painted the wheel shafts in a candy cane design. While the boat is underway, the shafts appear like screws spinning.
    Or the old barber shop, outdoor, rotating displays.

    63.jpg 64.jpg 65.jpg 66.jpg

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  18. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheels17 View Post
    ... head into the dock at about a 30 degree angle at a pretty good clip, and at the last minute, nail it in reverse. The lateral force would pull the stern over as the forward momentum was canceled, and the boat would end up moving sideways into the dock.
    It's actually the prop wash that causes that, not torque forces.

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    Getting back to some of the points I was working on. Alignments are real critical on these. Who does the alignment can vary on a number of factors. But in some cases it is the machinist who cut the wheel shaft.

    The wheel shaft placement, angle/pitch is fixed, there is no adjusting that. So once the shaft is in place, the marine gear gets aligned to it. Then the engine is aligned to marine gear.

    If you are setting up a lathe using test bars and other methods, you are generally looking to try to get to single digit .0001"s. The wheel shaft, gear and engine alignment is a little more forgiving, but you are still looking to get to single digit .001"s.

    Kind of hard to see the wheel shaft with the gray guard in place here:

    35.jpg

    But walking around the engine to the other side, we can the coupling. During alignment we are looking to get single digit .001's on face and rim readings of the two adjoining couplings:

    36.jpg

    Not my pics, but this can give a general idea of what we are looking at, and this is the most common style I see, being a direct shaft out:

    76.jpg 77.jpg

    Another style I do see, but more in tractor tugs. It is what I know as a Z drive. However alignment on Z drives I see are more forgiving as they tend to use large U-joints in the shafts.

    78.jpg

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    I tend to get around a bit on a variety of stuff. So I'm out of pics on the EMD, and its systems that started this thread.

    To continue in line with what I wanted to show, I need to show similar set ups on other vessels. One I was on this week is a new boat that came into service this year. It uses Cat 3512's. On this alignment they use steel blocks and shims:

    81.jpg 82.jpg

    Looking at the coupling for wheel shaft to marine gear, its about 16" in diameter:

    83.jpg 84.jpg

    The shaft itself is about 8" in diameter. We see it going through a rear bulk head:

    85.jpg

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  22. #35
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    Also had a job in a shipyard this past week. This shipyard does not have in-house machine shop though. I wanted to show the shafts on the lathes.

    This particular yard sends shaft work out. They can do removal, installation, and alignments though. With a few boats in dry dock, we can see various states of competition outside the hull.

    This one has the shafts installed, but wheels are not on yet. You can see the taper and key for the wheel mounting:

    86.jpg 87.jpg 88.jpg

    We can also see the where the shaft is going through a bearing:

    89.jpg

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    The bearings are known as cutlass bearings. Some variations look like this:

    79.jpg 80.jpg

    A quick look at another boat where the shafts are out. The old cutlass bearing is still in:

    90.jpg 91.jpg

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    I worked at a shipyard in Portand, OR for about a year as a marine electrician. The shipyard built new tugs and also serviced older boats (mostly tugs but other boats as well). I got to see a few pretty cool diesel engines that were installed in the old tugs. One particular tug came in and we nicknamed it the "SS Rustoleum" because it sat moored in the Gulf of Mexico for seven years. It was built in the early 1950s and had an EMD two-stroke diesel. I can't remember many of the details but it looked similar to the one you posted. I remember it had a turbo, not a supercharger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonMag View Post
    I remember it had a turbo, not a supercharger.
    Had both. They need the Rootes blower at low rpm and to get started, when the pressure from the turbo is enough, it pushes open a door in the blower and the air goes around, then the vanes just spin without doing any work, cuts down on the energy losses. Technical name is "blower-bypass".


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