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Old No. 2 Cincinnati Milling Machine Questions

rowantrees

Plastic
Joined
Dec 18, 2018
Hi everyone, long time lurker first time poster, hope I don't mess anything up.

I'm very new to machining and am just trying to figure out how to get a couple of machines setup

I've recently come into possession of an old (pre-dial) No.2 machine in pretty great condition with a heavy duty vertical head on it and a bunch of older tooling. Not sure where to find the serial number to get an exact date on it.

I'm trying to figure out how to get my hands on some tool holders and to know what will fit in the machine and based on measurements of what came with it it seems like it is likely using a #14 B&S taper with two equal size drive keys? One of the tool holders that came with it measures ~2.332" at the big end and tapers to 2.175" over about 4.25", the others are all in the same ballpark, within .005". Have I assessed this correctly?

Any suggestions on where I can get some tooling and/or an adapter from B&S 14 to almost anything else?

Thanks in advance and I'm happy to answer any questions to help get some information!
20181219_105245[1].jpg 20181219_105232[1].jpg 20181219_105202[1].jpg
 
I'll have to go by the photos in saying this - that is in no way a B&S 14 simply because it is way too short and steep.

Likely someones idea of a shop built special.

1923 catalog says the vertical head for your mill came with B&S 11

I'll see if I can scan some of this for you later

Look at any list of B&S tapers and you will see that they do not have much of a taper and they are LONG - link says 8.25" on #14
Standard Tapers

ON EDIT - thumbnails from '23 catalog. The right vertical head for yours will be the one for 2 H.P.

Hi everyone, long time lurker first time poster, hope I don't mess anything up.

I'm very new to machining and am just trying to figure out how to get a couple of machines setup

I've recently come into possession of an old (pre-dial) No.2 machine in pretty great condition with a heavy duty vertical head on it and a bunch of older tooling. Not sure where to find the serial number to get an exact date on it.

I'm trying to figure out how to get my hands on some tool holders and to know what will fit in the machine and based on measurements of what came with it it seems like it is likely using a #14 B&S taper with two equal size drive keys? One of the tool holders that came with it measures ~2.332" at the big end and tapers to 2.175" over about 4.25", the others are all in the same ballpark, within .005". Have I assessed this correctly?

Any suggestions on where I can get some tooling and/or an adapter from B&S 14 to almost anything else?

Thanks in advance and I'm happy to answer any questions to help get some information!
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Thank for the responses!

That taper is very close to what my rough measurements came up with, so I wonder if these holders are just truncated? My measured taper per inch which is certainly not precise was 0.037 vs the listed 0.0417. Maybe the perspective on the picture is throwing you off? It's a very small taper.

Do you know perhaps where I would look for a serial number on this vintage of machine? I suspect this mill may be 10 - 20 years older than that catalog, and therefore perhaps that catalog isn't representative of what they were doing back then...?

I am positive that the opening in this spindle is WAY larger than a #11, this 2.332 tool fits in very easily, with at least a few thou to spare, very plausible that it's 2.34, and I can't find any other machine taper other than B&S 14 with an opening in that ball park,let alone that might have been used around the turn of the century. Could certainly be something completely random though
 
Thumbnail is turn of the century and maybe a bit later. Yours is later by far. No photos yet to to get a closer estimate. 1913 catalog shows still ROUND over arm (and only B&S #11 in hor. spindle), while 1923 catalog has dumped the round over arm in favor of a dovetailed massive casting - as can be seen in thumbnail above.

Serial face of column, adjacent spindle flange - hidden until you get vertical head off - not that the serial will tell you anything - no records back that far. Serial book basically only goes back to to 1933 for Cincinnati Milling Machine

ON EDIT - thumbnails add arbor lists for 1913, a few 9, all the rest 10, 11 &12. No 14 that early

Thank for the responses!

That taper is very close to what my rough measurements came up with, so I wonder if these holders are just truncated? My measured taper per inch which is certainly not precise was 0.037 vs the listed 0.0417. Maybe the perspective on the picture is throwing you off? It's a very small taper.

Do you know perhaps where I would look for a serial number on this vintage of machine? I suspect this mill may be 10 - 20 years older than that catalog, and therefore perhaps that catalog isn't representative of what they were doing back then...?

I am positive that the opening in this spindle is WAY larger than a #11, this 2.332 tool fits in very easily, with at least a few thou to spare, very plausible that it's 2.34, and I can't find any other machine taper other than B&S 14 with an opening in that ball park,let alone that might have been used around the turn of the century. Could certainly be something completely random though
 

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Thanks a ton for the information!

It's great to be able to tap into some knowledgeable people here!

Do you have thoughts on what the taper might be? are there other less common tapers Cincinnati used that are in the ballpark for 2.33-2.34 at the big end?

I'll stick something of a known diameter up there and see how far up the taper goes or at what point it hits 2".

Thanks again
 
Could certainly be something completely random though

No, not at all likely. It COULD be MT. And I do not think you have a jarno, though, as it isn't a B&S product where it "could have been".

Oscar Beale was B&S Works Manager, pushed his new taper while writing under the pen-name "Jarno". The battles raged. When the dust had settled, jarno adoptions were mostly in lathe HS. Mills remained mostly B&S ELSE MT with a locking key (see hor-bores). Lathe TS and drillpresses remained mostly MT.

Not much changed until NMTB series and WW II needed even to push those to a wide acceptance, even so.

Jarno's advantage is that the the taper angle or per-foot rate is always the same, regardless of size, and "in theory" can have an infinite number of intermediate sizes and no upper or lower bound as to size because the math "just works".

The downside? If you DO have a jarno, dead-centers are about the ONLY tooling you are likely to find "store bought", and those are not much in demand on a mill.

The upside is that lots of folks who make those goods are set up to accurately grind to the spec. VERY accurately. See Stark or Riten jarno centres.

Bottom line is you need to get much better measurements, angle or taper per-foot included AND / OR / THEN get hands onto a B&S 11 or such or the larger MT and "see if" - burrs and such cleaned -up, they blue-up and fit.
 
Standard tapers link in Post #2 if you want to take a look

Thanks a ton for the information!

It's great to be able to tap into some knowledgeable people here!

Do you have thoughts on what the taper might be? are there other less common tapers Cincinnati used that are in the ballpark for 2.33-2.34 at the big end?

I'll stick something of a known diameter up there and see how far up the taper goes or at what point it hits 2".

Thanks again
 
After a few more measurements on the machine and everyone being sure it's either B&S and (or MAYBE Jarno) I'm more and more convinced it's a #14. If it's not it's something completely random which just seems exceedingly unlikely.

The taper DOES extend for a full 8.5 +/- 1/16 inches in the spindle. The big end is is 2.34" +/- .005" and I couldn't get anything very precise for the small end, but it's right around 2". I'm not setup for the precision work yet so that's the best I can do at the moment, but all of the is VERY close to the B&S #14 spec, and nowhere near the spec for any of those other tapers I've looked through several whole lists before I even made this post and then again since all this discussion started.

The next closest would be a #6 Morse or #19 Jarno but the Morse starts significantly too large and tapers WAY too quickly, I'm quite confident that's not it. The Jarno is plausible but still starts a little too large at the big end, could be intended to have some stickout there, but it is definitely plausible... but I'm still leaning towards the B&S because it was clearly pretty heavily favored in these machines... I'm going to have a local guy make up the sleeve and give it a whirl, and I'll report back on the results.

I'll certainly agree 100% that the above tool holder was a shop made custom job (as were all the other tools I have) but probably just because the previous owner also couldn't find anywhere that sold tools with the proper taper, so he cobbled something together.
 
After a few more measurements on the machine and everyone being sure it's either B&S and (or MAYBE Jarno) I'm more and more convinced it's a #14. If it's not it's something completely random which just seems exceedingly unlikely.

The taper DOES extend for a full 8.5 +/- 1/16 inches in the spindle. The big end is is 2.34" +/- .005" and I couldn't get anything very precise for the small end, but it's right around 2". I'm not setup for the precision work yet so that's the best I can do at the moment, but all of the is VERY close to the B&S #14 spec, and nowhere near the spec for any of those other tapers I've looked through several whole lists before I even made this post and then again since all this discussion started.

The next closest would be a #6 Morse or #19 Jarno but the Morse starts significantly too large and tapers WAY too quickly, I'm quite confident that's not it. The Jarno is plausible but still starts a little too large at the big end, could be intended to have some stickout there, but it is definitely plausible... but I'm still leaning towards the B&S because it was clearly pretty heavily favored in these machines... I'm going to have a local guy make up the sleeve and give it a whirl, and I'll report back on the results.

I'll certainly agree 100% that the above tool holder was a shop made custom job (as were all the other tools I have) but probably just because the previous owner also couldn't find anywhere that sold tools with the proper taper, so he cobbled something together.

There generally IS "stick out", big-end, and you may not be measuring the small end where it's gage line actually stops. Your local helper may have #4 and #5 MT sleeves or such and the mystery could be soon resolved.

End of the day? It doesn't really matter so long as you, he, or SOMEBODY can turn a proper fit TO wotever taper - or not-even-a-taper it is.
 
Not sure if you could see in the above pictures, but this one does also have some large drive keys, so sure it could stick out a bit but it still would be intended to fit onto those keys (I assume that's the correct term?).

Anyway, I'm having fun figuring this out, and getting some help rebuilding the '58 bridgeport I also bought at the same time will be a whole other post I'll embark on soon!

Thanks for all of the help, and I'll definitely post again when I have anything else to report!
 
Not sure if you could see in the above pictures, but this one does also have some large drive keys, so sure it could stick out a bit but it still would be intended to fit onto those keys (I assume that's the correct term?).

Anyway, I'm having fun figuring this out, and getting some help rebuilding the '58 bridgeport I also bought at the same time will be a whole other post I'll embark on soon!

Thanks for all of the help, and I'll definitely post again when I have anything else to report!

Kindness to the rest of us you keep each critter in ONE thread, not two, next go, yah?

:)
 
Absolutely! Posted it here first and then noticed the antique forum looked more active so cross posted, and then confused myself and everyone else!
 
Absolutely! Posted it here first and then noticed the antique forum looked more active so cross posted, and then confused myself and everyone else!

I don't think I'm the only one who makes use of "new posts" rather than hanging out in only one "Forum", so it dasn't really much matter.

So long as it is "concentrated", not duplicated, the maker's name and model will get the attention of those who have info, interest, or both.
 








 
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