Saved from the scrapper K&T 2HL vertical

Ferroequinologis · Jul 26, 2021

I have done mechanic work for a local scrapyard on the side before. Last week I got some trucks running and the owner asked if I wanted cash or trade. There was a pontoon boat I had my eye on, but while walking back there I saw the K&T and a small Bridgeport. Really wanting a mill to go with my 16x54 American Pacemaker lathe, I asked for the K&T. The owner gave me both mills AND the pontoon!

Got the mill inside yesterday. Been cleaning it up and getting things freed. Going to flush it once I get new sight glasses on it. September 1943 according to the serial, 11th in the group.

Missing some stuff st the right end of the table- I assume it has to do with indexing the table and power feed? Manuals show several different types, not sure which one mine had. Anyone have an idea? And if so, where could I find those parts?

M.B. Naegle · Jul 26, 2021

Ferroequinologis said:
I have done mechanic work for a local scrapyard on the side before. Last week I got some trucks running and the owner asked if I wanted cash or trade. There was a pontoon boat I had my eye on, but while walking back there I saw the K&T and a small Bridgeport. Really wanting a mill to go with my 16x54 American Pacemaker lathe, I asked for the K&T. The owner gave me both mills AND the pontoon!

Got the mill inside yesterday. Been cleaning it up and getting things freed. Going to flush it once I get new sight glasses on it. September 1943 according to the serial, 11th in the group.

Missing some stuff st the right end of the table- I assume it has to do with indexing the table and power feed? Manuals show several different types, not sure which one mine had. Anyone have an idea? And if so, where could I find those parts?

Pictures? But assuming you're talking about the change gears that go on the far right side of the table, those sets rarely come up and when they do are sold for ten times as much as the rest of the machine. It's really cool to have them but unless you plan on machining helical gears or something, you don't need them. I'd love to find a set for our K&T 2H or 2L Cincinnati horizontals, but they're not practically worth what you see them on the market for (replaced by CNC).

The caps that cover the end of the tables lead screw in the absence of the gearing do show up periodically. I actually bought one for our 2H that came off of a 2HL thinking it would fit, but it's too small and not enough room to adapt it. If you're interested in it, send my a PM.

johnoder · Jul 26, 2021

Here are two scans of a horizontal with the Dividing Head and its enclosed drive - the object being to drive the DH at some selected gear ratio in relation to the table screw - for milling helices

From the 1939 full line catalog

And here are some scans of the vertical

Ferroequinologis · Jul 26, 2021

I posted the thread from my cell, so I'm on the desktop now so can add pictures.

I'd love to be able to cut gears, but it will be a long time before my skills get to gear cutting level anyway. I unloaded it from the trailer with my boom truck, and rolled it in the shop on some schedule 80 pipe I had used to move the Pacemaker inside with.

I'm not 100% sure I have a 2HL, it says 2H on the side. I've been searching a lot and seen pictures and videos, and people call them 2H or 2HL but I can't see the difference yet.

I plan to rotate it so it is next to the lathe, and far enough away that I can open the door to the belts on the lathe with the mill table all the way forward and to the left.

There is a fella near me with a 40 taper collet chuck with a ton of collets for $250, thinking of getting them.

4GSR · Jul 26, 2021

Your attachments are not coming up on the screen.

Ferroequinologis · Jul 26, 2021

Some more pictures. I started to clean up the table with a scotch pad and WD-40. Going to take some elbow grease, but it came relatively clean.

johnoder · Jul 26, 2021

Its a 2H so you don't need 40 taper stuff

here is a fella near me with a 40 taper collet chuck with a ton of collets for $250, thinking of getting them

Ferroequinologis · Jul 26, 2021

johnoder said:
Its a 2H so you don't need 40 taper stuff

Ok, so do you know what it takes then? Glad I didn't buy it yet. I printed the manual from Vintage Machinery and it say 40 taper, so that's where I got that from.

johnoder · Jul 26, 2021

My '39 full line catalog says the 2HL had 40 and the 2H had 40 with an extra charge for 50. I am guessing by '43 they were mostly 50, but they are easy to check - 40 has 3 1/2" OD spindle nose and on 50 the nose is 5 1/16 OD

Ok, so do you know what it takes then?

(On Edit...good guess John - the full line '40 catalog says 50 for 2H)

Ferroequinologis · Jul 26, 2021

johnoder said:
My '39 full line catalog says the 2HL had 40 and the 2H had 40 with an extra charge for 50. I am guessing by '43 they were mostly 50, but they are easy to check - 40 has 3 1/2" OD spindle nose and on 50 the nose is 5 1/16 OD

(On Edit...good guess John - the full line '40 catalog says 50 for 2H)

Ah yes, the manual I was reading is 39 I believe. Guess I will pull the spindle tonight and find out for sure!

Thanks!

johnoder · Jul 26, 2021

Ferroequinologis said:
Ah yes, the manual I was reading is 39 I believe. Guess I will pull the spindle tonight and find out for sure!

Thanks!

Or just slap a mic or even old time spring calipers on the spindle nose - you'll know in a flash without taking anything apart

50 will be nearly dead nuts 5.062 O.D.

Ferroequinologis · Jul 26, 2021

johnoder said:
Or just slap a mic or even old time spring calipers on the spindle nose - you'll know in a flash without taking anything apart

50 will be nearly dead nuts 5.062 O.D.

Definitely a 40 taper. 3.5in

johnoder · Jul 26, 2021

Ferroequinologis said:
Definitely a 40 taper. 3.5in

Amazing - factory sales info gives the impression all the 2H machines had 50 taper as of 1940, but they don't

M.B. Naegle · Jul 26, 2021

Our 2H horizontal is 50 taper, and I always had the impression that 2H's were 50 taper by default, whereas the 2HL's were 40 taper by default. I'm sure you could order them either way, but the spindle size kinda goes with the work size and horsepower which is dictated by the model.

You can also measure the largest diameter of the spindle taper, which should be around 2 3/4" for 50 taper.

CalG · Jul 26, 2021

Ferroequinologis said:
Some more pictures. I started to clean up the table with a scotch pad and WD-40. Going to take some elbow grease, but it came relatively clean.
View attachment 325325 View attachment 325326 View attachment 325327 View attachment 325328 View attachment 325329

Nice! Out of some school shop by the colors ;-) Low miles, but a hard life.

Again. NICE!

by the way, deodorized mineral spirits is better than WD-40 for nearly everything around the shop. and less costly.

Tip a little ATF into the bottle, makes it red, and adds to the goodness.

Ferroequinologis · Jul 26, 2021

johnoder said:
Amazing - factory sales info gives the impression all the 2H machines had 50 taper as of 1940, but they don't

Here's the pics so I'm not seeing things wrong.

I also went to see my buddy at the rubber and gasket shop, and he water jetted me some acrylic and vitriol (all he had in that thickness was white) gaskets. I think they are spiffy! Anyone needs some, it was $35 for the set of 4 and 8 gaskets.

I don't normally use WD-40, but a friend said use that on the ways and he has restored many machines, so I went with it. I'll try the mineral spirits on it, thanks for the tip CalG!

johnoder · Jul 26, 2021

Here's the pics so I'm not seeing things wrong

That's a tool that goes in spindle - go to mill, bend over as needed and tell us the dia of the spindle nose that is hanging out (down) a bit at the bottom of the sliding head - (that is the bottom end (or nose) of spindle installed in the machine).

Also, go back to tool and tell us by eyeball what the big end of taper is in dia. A #50 will be 2.750 at big end of taper. A #40 would be much smaller at 1.75

This is all very nicely documented in Machinery's Handbook if you have access to a copy

Ferroequinologis · Jul 26, 2021

johnoder said:
That's a tool that goes in spindle - go to mill, bend over as needed and tell us the dia of the spindle nose that is hanging out (down) a bit at the bottom of the sliding head - (that is the bottom end (or nose) of spindle installed in the machine).

Also, go back to tool and tell us by eyeball what the big end of taper is in dia. A #50 will be 2.750 at big end of taper. A #40 would be much smaller at 1.75

This is all very nicely documented in Machinery's Handbook if you have access to a copy

Well I just had everyone scratching their heads for no reason. The inside of the spindle where the tool holder goes is 2.750. The outside of the spindle that sticks out of the head is 5.062... :dunce:

I don't have a copy, been meaning to buy one as I know it has tons of useful info I need to learn in it. Going to go order one right now...

johnoder · Jul 27, 2021

Lots of history there. K&T patented both the face keyed / flanged spindle nose AND the double round over arms in the early teens - forcing folks like Cincinnati and B&S to pay them royalties for years and years. In other words, the face keyed spindle was in use for years before the steep tapers were included by the National Machine Tool Builders Association (a standards outfit). My 1928 B&S catalog is the oldest I have showing this advancement. We have to assume that B&S paid K&T royalties for double round over arms prior to this.

ramsay1 · Jul 27, 2021

johnoder said:
Amazing - factory sales info gives the impression all the 2H machines had 50 taper as of 1940, but they don't

Horizontal #40 lot #2048 - 6413...#50 Lot 4226 - 6413...

Vertical #40 2049 - 6362 #50 4382 - 6362

Vertical built by Westinghouse which took different bearings.. #50 2049 - 4227....

Cheers; Ramsay 1

Saved from the scrapper K&T 2HL vertical

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