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  1. #1
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    Default Sources for Sheldon info?

    Heard about the Yahoo group (wish PM had a section for this...), requested "in" a week ago and haven't heard back as yet...

    This is a Mobile Shop lathe made specifically for the US Army, WWII era, Model S-11-36,complete with Army Ordnance logo engraved in the bedway after the SN.

    I did source an original War Dept. parts manual (no operations manual) but the headstock on mine is different; ball-bearing type with gits oilers in front similar to my SB; my parts manual shows top oilers. No reason to think it isn't original, suspect headstock design was changed and I have an older manual.

    Cannot locate any useful information, operations manuals for these anywhere- just parts manuals on Fleabay.

    Did Sheldon even print operations manuals,and if so, is there a source for reprints?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tobnpr View Post
    Heard about the Yahoo group (wish PM had a section for this...), requested "in" a week ago and haven't heard back as yet...

    This is a Mobile Shop lathe made specifically for the US Army, WWII era, Model S-11-36,complete with Army Ordnance logo engraved in the bedway after the SN.

    I did source an original War Dept. parts manual (no operations manual) but the headstock on mine is different; ball-bearing type with gits oilers in front similar to my SB; my parts manual shows top oilers. No reason to think it isn't original, suspect headstock design was changed and I have an older manual.

    Cannot locate any useful information, operations manuals for these anywhere- just parts manuals on Fleabay.

    Did Sheldon even print operations manuals,and if so, is there a source for reprints?
    Have you looked into Ozark Woodworker? He does very nice reprints of manuals, and I purchased a sheldon manual from him years ago. Jeff

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    3 head stocks were offered...plain bearing(like SB), tapered roller, and an angular contact(IIRC) that was configured kind of like a Logan.

    if your is the tapered roller I can post a document....not the same lathe but the same headstock design.

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    ^^^
    I did- ironically it just came in the mail after I made the initial post, wasn't expecting for a few more days; and does have some limited operating instructions.

    It's for the 10" swing lathes (mine is 11-1/4" swing); looks to be very close in many areas, but still shows top oilers on the headstock same as the Army manual does. I guess, the front oilers were an added improvement to get more oil to the lower wicks. Between the two manuals looks like I'll have some basic info.
    Again, with the exception of the ball thrust bearing on the spindle, looks very similar to a SB.

    But, there are no specs/instructions on bearing adjustments/spindle "play"- I know how to adjust the take-up nut to adjust end play, but one of the spindle cap bolts is loose and I'm trying to figure out how to adjust their torque. Should I use a round bar in the spindle (indicator on top of spindle), and lift to check for play and adjust same as for a South Bend? Manual only addresses end play, states that bolts in the bearing caps can be slightly adjusted for tension on the bearings, but doesn't say how this should be correctly evaluated.

    No reason to suspect at this point that there's any issue with the ball thrust bearing, but wondering if it would be beneficial to replace as long as I'm taking this apart; would a roller bearing, or tapered roller bearing style be an improvement over the original style?

    I didn't want to disassemble the headstock/spindle assembly without a clear plan to reassemble and adjust to correct tolerances. Manuals don't address the spindle wicks, guess I'll pull them and see if any of the pre-made SB replacement wicks available might work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    3 head stocks were offered...plain bearing(like SB), tapered roller, and an angular contact(IIRC) that was configured kind of like a Logan.
    Lathe operations...HTRAL, How to Run a Lathe by South Bend Lathe is a free download, many publications 1914 -1966.................
    The Care and Operation of a Lathe by Sheldon Machine Co., Inc. 1942
    Lathe Handbook No.1 by Popular Mechanics 1925

    Cabinet mount, underneath drive, four and three point and third as a swivel mount - Army truck.

    From the 1944 catalog:
    sheldon-apron.jpgsheldon-configurations.jpgsheldon-headstock.jpgsheldon-quick-change-types.jpgsheldon-spindle-options.jpg
    John

    The quick change became a two lever gearbox. Spindle nose and taper are the same for the 10" and 11" spindles. Bearings might be the same but other elements such as back gears are not.

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    Quote-Manuals don't address the spindle wicks, guess I'll pull them and see if any of the pre-made SB replacement wicks available might work.- end quote.

    Quote-but one of the spindle cap bolts is loose and I'm trying to figure out how to adjust their torque.-end qoute.


    That 2nd quote leads me to believe you have plain(bronze) spindle bearings.

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    Headstock pics...

    20190608_180728_1560031720426.jpg

    20190608_180747_1560031720308.jpg

    20190608_180801_1560031719749.jpg

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    Yes, plain bearing headstock....i cannot remember if there are no felts or if the cups are simply at a level that keeps the spindle journal submerged.

    my memory may be faulty but calling here and speaking to the gentleman may shed some light...he worked there (at Sheldon)- his name is John and is a pleasure to speak with.

    Custom Leather Drive Belts-Single-ply (11/64''), up to 4'' wide

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    Possibly similar to older (series O and Series N) South Bend as to spindle bearings

    Here is a big book devoted exclusively to lathes with heavy wall bronze spindle bearings, but I don't recall ANY coverage of "adjusting" such bearings. Maybe others have looked closer than I have.

    Generally you put in or removed very thin shims under the bearing caps - but the essential requirement was free turning with the least possible clearance to suit the work (heavy roughing or light finishing) at hand. Note also never any references to "torque" in this process. They were far more interested in whether the bearing got hot or just warm, and you have to consider that torque wrenches were just plain old uncommon in 1927

    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/5795.pdf

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    Removed the left side bearing cap, bearing and spindle look nearly brand new. No scoring,galling or any imperfections, what look to be original scrapings remain and "X" oil grooves are clear and clean. So far, so good...

    The only visible wear to the bearing is on the left end where the take-up collar abuts it (picture 3 above). Maybe needle bearings didn't exist in the 40's? Steel collar revolving against the bronze bearing, the spindle feed gear and the collar are keyed to the spindle...is there any sort of thin needle bearing that would fit over a key to solve this condition?

    I'd like to modify this as I did on my SB (replacing the washer with needle bearing).

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    about the only way to do that would be to make a new inner collar, same internal dimisions and key way, but oversized on the outside diameter.

    The inner surface of the new collar could be recessed to accept a bearing that would locate in the recess on its periphery instead of its bore...captured in the collar and just proud of its surface so it contacts the end of the bronze bearing.

    you could also do it with a step on the collar for the bearing to slip over I guess but that doesn't seem like it would offer much support, although that way may allow the use of a proper ball thrust bearing depending on the space available to work with.

    Not sure if either would actually be an improvement though.

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    Thanks, just might tinker with that once i get it all cleaned up.
    I hadn't planned on painting it...but I couldn't help myself.
    Seems to be in too good of condition not to, and its unique history with the WWII effort we were just reminded of convinced me to make the extra effort.

    Just seems like poor engineering to have metal on metal surfaces rotating under load with no lubrication. Hell, why not a teflon coated washer or something similar...

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    I would not say poor engineering.
    I would say engineered for a purpose.

    military mobile shop in the middle of nowhere, machine for keeping other stuff going it needed to be as simple as possible so if the machine broke down a fellow could get it back and running with whatever was available.

    It gets some lubrication from the main bearing bleeding off and Steel on bronze is an excellent bearing interface, still going after 70 plus..

    Do call and talk to John, his personal machine is an 11", although I think he has a flat belt overhead drive, still he will know.

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    Here is a 9500 Lb 27" swing Lodge & Shipley showing off its Bronze on Steel (or maybe cast iron) thrust bearing
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dcp_0988sm.jpg  

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    tobnpr,

    Did you see the thrust bearing?

    aetna-thrust-bearing.jpg
    Add lube to the bearing via the little hole.
    John

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    if I'm not mistaken he means the outboard side, common mod on a SB to replace the washer with a needle thrust bearing.

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    Ah... was thinking he referred to the inboard side of the rear spindle bearing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    I would not say poor engineering.
    I would say engineered for a purpose.

    military mobile shop in the middle of nowhere, machine for keeping other stuff going it needed to be as simple as possible so if the machine broke down a fellow could get it back and running with whatever was available.

    It gets some lubrication from the main bearing bleeding off and Steel on bronze is an excellent bearing interface, still going after 70 plus..

    Do call and talk to John, his personal machine is an 11", although I think he has a flat belt overhead drive, still he will know.
    10-4, thanks for edumacating me

    Got the gearbox scrubbed out with kerosene, painting that and the taper attachment tonight...
    Spindle removal to check the felts underneath next.

    No lube specs I can find, given similarities of construction type, same types as used in SB? Specifically, Velocite #10 in spindle cups?

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    I would probably just use whatever the manual states(SAE20? Or 30?) or maybe use the DTE ISO equivalent.

    EDIT- just occurred to me that was a useless answer as your machine is a plain bearing with side oilers...if you do have wicks IMO a safe bet would be DTE24(ISO32), same as the SB "B" oil.
    Last edited by iwananew10K; 06-12-2019 at 09:11 PM.


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