Stuck collet holder in K&T 2D, help needed

UP90 · Jan 26, 2019

Hi all,

I have a K&T Model 2D, rotary head mill. It came with a Gorton chuck holder in it, with the infamous double taper collets, I believe them to be the “Z” size.

Anyways, there is no draw bar on this machine…so, how do I remove this collet holder? I’ve tried Kroil, and very light “taps” with a piece of wood, as well as a “chain wrench” with some thick leather (to prevent marring) with zero luck so far. Any advice?

I have included a pic of the “spare” collet holder it came with. Is it just a taper holding it in place, or is it also threaded in with the female threads at the top of the taper?

Thank you for your time and help.

johnoder · Jan 26, 2019

cergolforge said:
Hi all,

I have a K&T Model 2D, rotary head mill. It came with a Gorton chuck holder in it, with the infamous double taper collets, I believe them to be the “Z” size.

Anyways, there is no draw bar on this machine…so, how do I remove this collet holder? I’ve tried Kroil, and very light “taps” with a piece of wood, as well as a “chain wrench” with some thick leather (to prevent marring) with zero luck so far. Any advice?

I have included a pic of the “spare” collet holder it came with. Is it just a taper holding it in place, or is it also threaded in with the female threads at the top of the taper?

Thank you for your time and help.

K&T version closed collets with a Knurled nut

Does knurled end in photos unscrew?

Any holes in knurled end for pin style hook spanner?

As far as the "holder" - isn't it clamped by the large notched ring nut?

UP90 · Jan 26, 2019

johnoder said:
K&T version closed collets with a Knurled nut

Does knurled end in photos unscrew?

The bottom piece of the collet holder has three "tabs" which fit into the corresponding "nut" above it. The "nut" is tightened with a spanner wrench, and can come completely off.

1st pic is the taper without the nut or piece with tabs.
2nd pic is the "nut"

m-lud · Jan 29, 2019

Your spare holder with the female threads. The threads look well used. Are they left hand threads. It doesn't seem likely with the direction of cutting rotation. Worth a look

Also on the subject of your collets.
K. T. 2D collets look like a Z type collet but are proprietary to a KT 2D mill. Hopefully with the Gorton holder you got lucky and it is a Z or ZZ collet. Are the collets stamped KT 30, or KT 20 ?

Or could there have been a threaded tool that went up through the holder and threaded into those threads to push the holder off. Just guessing.

Paolo_MD · Jan 29, 2019

I'm not an expert in 2D mills. But I kind of recall from other threads that the machine was produced with three different type of spindle, one with a draw-bar holding the tooling (perhaps with B&S taper), one with a "quick-change" version of 30 taper (a cam acting on a cut in the shank would lock the taper in place), and one with a collet holder.

Whereas the business end of your spare could be identical to the spindle, I don't think that the tapered end is the same. I would be rather surprised to find an arrangement without draw-bar (or, at least, a slot to knock off the small end of the taper with a wedge) with a self-holding taper.

Without any blueprint or expert information I would avoid exerting any force to pull the collet holder. First, I would verify that is not an integral part of the spindle or something intended to be there for life (e.g. pinned in place). Then, after verifying that your machine doesn't have any kind of cam-lock, I would place a U-shaped block to take up the space between the large ring and the body of the quill and try pulling the tool by screwing the ring against the spacer.

But, once again: First and foremost, figure out what type of spindle you have (some were on early production, some on late production ones) and go from there.

All I know was learned from threads here. Do your homework on searching old threads and you'll likely find the information you need.

Good Luck!

Paolo

ramsay1 · Jan 29, 2019

2D tool and die mills were also available with b3 taper that takes a collet much like an R8 and uses a drawbar.. My 2d uses R8 collets and I suspect that at some point the B3 spindle was opened up to R8 configuration which is larger....I would imagine the B3 spindle is not nearly as common as the double angle collet with spindle nut ... Ramsay 1

UP90 · Jan 29, 2019

Paolo_MD said:
I'm not an expert in 2D mills. But I kind of recall from other threads that the machine was produced with three different type of spindle, one with a draw-bar holding the tooling (perhaps with B&S taper), one with a "quick-change" version of 30 taper (a cam acting on a cut in the shank would lock the taper in place), and one with a collet holder.

Whereas the business end of your spare could be identical to the spindle, I don't think that the tapered end is the same. I would be rather surprised to find an arrangement without draw-bar (or, at least, a slot to knock off the small end of the taper with a wedge) with a self-holding taper.

Without any blueprint or expert information I would avoid exerting any force to pull the collet holder. First, I would verify that is not an integral part of the spindle or something intended to be there for life (e.g. pinned in place). Then, after verifying that your machine doesn't have any kind of cam-lock, I would place a U-shaped block to take up the space between the large ring and the body of the quill and try pulling the tool by screwing the ring against the spacer.

But, once again: First and foremost, figure out what type of spindle you have (some were on early production, some on late production ones) and go from there.

All I know was learned from threads here. Do your homework on searching old threads and you'll likely find the information you need.

Good Luck!

Paolo

Hey Paolo, thanks for the input!

I have heard mention of two different versions, but have not seen any literature to confirm this. I have the original manual that came with this mill, but it shows a normal drawbar arrangement.

That is a good thought-I just assumed that this "spare" collet holder would be the same. It very well may be different. I have yet to find any cam lock, or hole to drive a wedge through. The hole inside of the taper dead ends, so I can't see a way to remove it from the inside either.

I actually made a quick 3/8" brass "washer" last week to do just that and act as a spacer to try and pull it out. I have not used it yet, as I am hesitant to pull too much without knowing how it's stuck in place for sure...

I'll look at the serial number and post that tonight. Maybe someone in the know can tell me if it's early/late and what kind of spindle it might have.

I've been digging quite a bit on the great forums here. I've found a few similar threads regarding Model D's, but I've not seen anyone with this "Gorton" collet holder on theirs.

Thanks again!
Aaron

m-lud · Jan 29, 2019

You definitely dont want to force anything. If it dead ends behind those threads.( If there are threads.) And you screwed a bolt in there when the bolt dead ended it would push the holder off. If it is a holder and not part of the spindle. It very well could be part of the spindle as paolo suspects.
Just something to look at.

johnoder · Jan 29, 2019

Serial will be the usual K&T format - all numeric

X-XXXX

OR

XX-XXXX

First is its position in that lot, and after the hyphen, the LOT number

UP90 · Jan 31, 2019

johnoder said:
Serial will be the usual K&T format - all numeric

X-XXXX

OR

XX-XXXX

First is its position in that lot, and after the hyphen, the LOT number

Serial number is painted over, but best I can see is:

8 - 9132
OR
8 - 8132

johnoder · Jan 31, 2019

8 - 9132

Lot of 12 completed February 1962.

I suppose that would be fairly NEW to be having odd ball spindle. My '68 was the no draw bar style with 30 taper of their design

Does it have power rapid on knee?

ramsay1 · Feb 1, 2019

johnoder said:
Lot of 12 completed February 1962.

I suppose that would be fairly NEW to be having odd ball spindle. My '68 was the no draw bar style with 30 taper of their design

Does it have power rapid on knee?

That power rapid on the knee (or lack thereof) was one of the sorest spots of the 2D as was told to me by a K&T employee of many years.. Trust me, if you have ever raised the knee on a manual one, you will understand... I know first hand.. Cheers; Ramsay 1

Cal Haines · Feb 2, 2019

cergolforge said:
Hi all,

I have a K&T Model 2D, rotary head mill. It came with a Gorton chuck holder in it, with the infamous double taper collets, I believe them to be the “Z” size.

Anyways, there is no draw bar on this machine…so, how do I remove this collet holder? I’ve tried Kroil, and very light “taps” with a piece of wood, as well as a “chain wrench” with some thick leather (to prevent marring) with zero luck so far. Any advice?

I have included a pic of the “spare” collet holder it came with. Is it just a taper holding it in place, or is it also threaded in with the female threads at the top of the taper?

Thank you for your time and help.

View attachment 248017 View attachment 248019 View attachment 248022

That's a pretty steep taper, whatever it is. I have a Hauser jig bore with an MT2 spindle. When a tool gets stuck in the spindle, no amount of heating the spindle, tapping from the back with a drift, etc., will free the tool. What works very well, however is to use pair of JT3 wedges to pop the tool loose. I slide the wedges in place, tap one side with a 1" scrap of brass and the tool pops loose with zero drama. JT3 wedges may not be big enough for what you have, so you may need to make up a similar set of wedges.

Cal

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