Thoughts on tooling the Van Norman 12 for drilling.

The VN 12 has three main limitations as a drilling machine- no quill, the limited space between the spindle and table, and the lack of VN 5c toolholders. When used as a vertical milling machine, this is not too bad, as the end mills etc are short.

Where it really becomes a problem is drilling when the holes are non standard size, and may require reaming. Screw machine drills eat less space, but the reamer is long. I have used the mill with the head flopped horizontal, and drilled with the Y axis, moving the ram back to gain space. That works well in some circumstances.

This does not solve the odd size toolholding problem. It seems to be the most problem with smaller sizes , under 1/2". Drill chucks eat a lot of space, are not very accurate, and the long extension just adds to any runout the spindle may have. VN collets are not impossible to find, but getting the right odd size is difficult. And when set up, switching collets means having to drop 3" or so down to get the collet out of the spindle. That can be a problem if working close to the limits of travel.

So what I am going to do is to use a ER16 collet holder on a long 1/2" straight shank,in a VN 1/2" collet. This will give a lot of flexibility with small drills and reamers. The collet holder body is only an 1 3/8" in length. Down side here is a max of 7/16" capacity.

Also, I am going to make an ER 20, or 25, collet holder with a VN 5c body, to go directly into the spindle. ( I asked Hardinge about this, but the price was close to $900.) The one I will make will not be hardened, as I do not have the ability to do so- but given infrequent use 1144 stress proof ought to last a long while.


This should eliminate the problem of obtaining the correct VN collet sizes, and help greatly with the vertical travel limitations.


I realize it was designed as a mill, and it is being used outside of it's sweet spot- however, it is what I have for now.

Thoughts on this plan?

Have you considered using 4140HT, which is pre-hardened, but still soft enough to machine?

Cal

Cal Haines said:

Have you considered using 4140HT, which is pre-hardened, but still soft enough to machine?

Cal

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Cal, where would I get small quantities?

My only experience with the 4140 steels is in the annealed state, and they were very sticky and hard to get a good finish on . (for me as an novice). I got a decent finish with high speed and deep cuts, but it was tricky working to any accuracy for me, under those conditions!

stoneaxe, drop by Pacific Machinery and Tool Steel in Portland. They stock a bunch of stuff, and routinely cut to size from plate. They usually have a table of offcuts that includes 4140 and similar.

4142 or 4140 in the heat treated condition will give you much nicer finishes than the annealed condition.

speedymetals.com has 2" 4140HT for $5.82 per inch. onlinemetals.com is another place to check. You can get chunks on eBay for less money, with free shipping. For example, there's a 2-5/8" bar on there now for about $4.70 per inch.

Cal

stoneaxe said:

Also, I am going to make an ER 20, or 25, collet holder with a VN 5c body, to go directly into the spindle. ( I asked Hardinge about this, but the price was close to $900.) The one I will make will not be hardened, as I do not have the ability to do so- but given infrequent use 1144 stress proof ought to last a long while.

This should eliminate the problem of obtaining the correct VN collet sizes, and help greatly with the vertical travel limitations.

I realize it was designed as a mill, and it is being used outside of it's sweet spot- however, it is what I have for now.

Click to expand...

These VN's are tremendous machines and I'd say that their advantages justify recognizing and working with or around their limitations.

I like the idea of the combination of the VN "5V" back end with an ER front end. Cool that you asked Hardinge and they'd be willing and able to make it - unfortunate, but not unsurprising, that it's cost-prohibitive. Too bad someone with connections to a far-east production capacity can't line up a batch of these, they'd be a boon to VN owners.

My VN 1R3 has a NMTB 40 spindle but the VN 'universal high speed head' (which has a quill of sorts) that I hope to mount onto it (it will need an inter-adapter mount plate because the mill and the sub-head are different vintages/ models) has a stock VN 5V spindle, although the one I have also has a user-made R8 spindle- and the R8 spindle has enough meat to it that I am hoping that I can "redevelop" the R8 into an ER32.

Please do share details of/ as you develop your VN to ER adapter, and good luck with that effort

kd1yt said:

These VN's are tremendous machines and I'd say that their advantages justify recognizing and working with or around their limitations.

I like the idea of the combination of the VN "5V" back end with an ER front end. Cool that you asked Hardinge and they'd be willing and able to make it - unfortunate, but not unsurprising, that it's cost-prohibitive. Too bad someone with connections to a far-east production capacity can't line up a batch of these, they'd be a boon to VN owners.

My VN 1R3 has a NMTB 40 spindle but the VN 'universal high speed head' (which has a quill of sorts) that I hope to mount onto it (it will need an inter-adapter mount plate because the mill and the sub-head are different vintages/ models) has a stock VN 5V spindle, although the one I have also has a user-made R8 spindle- and the R8 spindle has enough meat to it that I am hoping that I can "redevelop" the R8 into an ER32.

Please do share details of/ as you develop your VN to ER adapter, and good luck with that effort

Click to expand...

Thank you.
I was surprised at the Hardinge quote, as they must have programs for the 5V and the ER , and they build an R8 to er arbor also- so I was thinking the development time would be minimal- of course, I don't know a thing about it, so there is that. I was also wondering if some other US based manufacturer could make them, like Maritool.
Problem is, most people are not running a VN for money- so maybe hard to justify cost for a hobbyist. I wish I knew what company made the "tools for cheap" endmill holders and collets- they must have the ability to make one. Or 50. I wonder what price point they would have to be to sell 50?

The guy (now retired) that used to run tool4cheap (IIRC) had VN "C" collets, endmill holders and shell mill arbors made overseas, but I guess they didn't sell well enough for him to order a second batch. Until we get to the point that manufacturing on demand for things like VN tooling is economical, I doubt things will get better.

Cal

The Maritool ER16 collet holder came in today, and on the old VN it is running .0015 out on the drill I have in it. Very much better than any chuck I have, and at least three inches of space saved!

I know the VN taper is out about .0007". I need to set up and grind it.

stoneaxe said:

Thank you.
I was surprised at the Hardinge quote, as they must have programs for the 5V and the ER , and they build an R8 to er arbor also- so I was thinking the development time would be minimal- of course, I don't know a thing about it, so there is that. I was also wondering if some other US based manufacturer could make them, like Maritool.
Problem is, most people are not running a VN for money- so maybe hard to justify cost for a hobbyist. I wish I knew what company made the "tools for cheap" endmill holders and collets- they must have the ability to make one. Or 50. I wonder what price point they would have to be to sell 50?

Click to expand...

Glad to hear that your arrangement with the Maritool is working well. Your mention of R8 reminded me that I've read of people re-turning R8 tooling to the smaller correct diameter/ angle to 'become' VN 5V - wonder how difficult it would be to do that successfully with an R8 ER chuck?

stoneaxe said:

The Maritool ER16 collet holder came in today, and on the old VN it is running .0015 out on the drill I have in it. Very much better than any chuck I have, and at least three inches of space saved!

I know the VN taper is out about .0007". I need to set up and grind it.

Click to expand...

Is this a straight shank ER-16 holder held in a collet? If so, try rotating the holder to see if you can find the spot where the runout of the holder and the spindle cancel each other out to some extent. Then mark the holder so you can get it back in that orientation next time.

Cal

kd1yt said:

Glad to hear that your arrangement with the Maritool is working well. Your mention of R8 reminded me that I've read of people re-turning R8 tooling to the smaller correct diameter/ angle to 'become' VN 5V - wonder how difficult it would be to do that successfully with an R8 ER chuck?

Click to expand...

I got a standard ER16 to 1/2" straight shank toolholder, not a VN to ER.

It is being used in a 1/2" VN collet.

Cal Haines said:

Is this a straight shank ER-16 holder held in a collet? If so, try rotating the holder to see if you can find the spot where the runout of the holder and the spindle cancel each other out to some extent. Then mark the holder so you can get it back in that orientation next time.

Cal

Click to expand...

I will try that.